To sin or Not to sin?!?

[Knowledge Is Power]

Hello everyone, my first topic here. Just trying to get more acquainted learn of the other members. So lets begin...

Throughout my life I have had religious followers, Christians more specifically, tell me of their beliefs and what it means to be saved. I personally am not much for religion. I am respectful though and am open minded enough to at least understand them by what they are saying even though I don't particularly follow such a Faith.

Now here is where it gets a bit tricky. From my own feelings and mind I do not really believe in such things as sin's. For that matter I don't particularly believe in such concepts as "good" or "evil" however I do at times submit to the general concept of it when it becomes hard to deal with certain experiences, and when it becomes difficult to explain my view on the concept itself; society is not always supportive .

With digressing further, I would like to know everyones view on the concept of "Good" and "Evil" or sinning in general. Do you believe such concepts play a role to where we end up when life here is expired?

[Kadensnga]

Dear Knowledge Is Power,

Many blessings to you.

I myself am faced often with this same dichotomy when dealing with religious family members.

I have learned to allow others to be comforted by their own beliefs.

I personally don't think there is as much "good" or evil" as there is that which is "desirable and undesirable".

Rain is evil to a roofer, but good to a farmer. Like wise high prices at the gas pump are evil to a consumer but good to an investor.

Who are we to condemn the investor for his joy of profit?

My personal discomfort with the price is not determined by the price, or the man who sets it,  but rather by my own ability to create abundance or enoughness in my own life...

A man seeking gain is not evil , only liken to a root clinging to the earth and sucking at her breasts. Like wise the earth is not evil when it recieves the man himself and is nourished.

That is just one example.

Karma is the force which insures any kind of positive or negative reward. Whether that reward is positive or negative is determined by the intentions of the one receiving.

I think this is an important question you ask, one that is sure to be faced with many dogmatic responses from various peoples views on the subject...

Do I think men will go to hell? Hardly. I think they will continue to grow.


Is sin the act of violating another?

Violating another is primal thinking, and a primal act... not evil just immature.

Should we protect one who is being violated, and intercede...should we repramand the one violating?

Think of it like you would two immature children fighting with one another, or taking anothers toy.... you will find your answer intuitively, and instinctively.

In truth; the victom goes unharmed in the grand scheme. This is just my view. They too will grow out of their victom-hood.

However, if and when (inevitably) that point/perspective is argued I just allow the person to make their point knowing that their level of spiritual evolution is appropriate for them, and all will be revealed in the "end" (lol)...to everyone.

It does not harm me for others to believe differently, nor does it harm them.

My personal philosophy is that if we operate always from a vantage point of "love" then all is good.

If others are compelling you to believe in hell... then they are operating from their own beliefs about "love".

As Niel Diamond Walsh points out (I believe accurately); the only important question in any given situation is "what would love do now"?


What would "I" do now?

It's better to let everyone else determine that for themselves, and as for you; just be conscious of what love would do, that is surely a path that will never lead you wrong.


Try not to upset those who believe they are "saving" you, allow them their comfort. There is no need to bang heads...it gets no one anywhere. Just appreciate their perspective and treat them with love.

I don't know it all, but there is no need for me to, so I don't worry about it.

Everything is as it should be. Just as Julia says "Injoy" and avoid the ego battles. Allow others to have their ego if it pleases them, and know that they will grow at their own pace.

That's my two cents.

Great Love to you,

Kadensnga


Ps. You cannot explain your view to a person who is not in harmony with it. I wouldnt try. Just listen to them and invite them into your world if they show genuine interest. Avoid ego battles.

Hope this helps.

[juliainkc]

Hello Dear Knowledge of Power and Kadensnga,

It is nice to see you in here Knowledge and Kadensnga's response is wonderfully expressed.

Many of us have been touched in some way by this influence. Language is the form of communication used on this plane as in words or symbols translating or transmuting a language spoken without words into this reality. This can lead to misunderstandings and miscommunications and quite easily.

Many like us whom have come from a background of having this influence can relate to the way this was 'passed down' in families of this Christian way of viewing these ideas or terms. And in all honesty, most people believe this way just because this is the way it was believed by their ancestors or elders, never questioning it for fear of being ostricized by family, community and society.

Saved to an orthodox Christian means to see Jesus on the cross as the Savior dying for one's sins and accepting his dying as though for them so they can see the Father. It is finished he cried. And then rose again three days later and ninety days later sent the Holy Spirit down from Heaven into the disciples with the admonition of 'Go, and build my church.'

And if you don't believe he is your Savior then well, so much for having a personal relationship with GOD brother, you are sunk and in the fire. Right? Mm hmm... yes, I have family that believes this very staunchly as well and yours truly is viewed as in deep need of being saved. Truth.

So, I went back into the church myself of freewill and took that Bible apart with the invitation of asking for Divine Guidance to get to the heart of the 'message' and boy howdy did I have some questions for the 'leaders' of the church whose expressions were priceless in my askings. And they patted me on the head and basically told me not to worry about such things, just go home and be the wife and mother you were called to be. That was many many years ago. . .

Sin is the word used when the Bible was being translated into the English language. They used a word that fit the closest to the 'original' as there wasn't a word really to define what it meant. It was supposedly taken from a game of archery. If you did not hit the bullseye, you 'sinned', missed the mark, the point of entry that led to Direct Connection with GOD or Source. Or in the game you took the prize and all the winnings.

I don't believe that GOD (pardon me, I am lazy and so I use a three letter name for the ONE who has no name) ever intended for Jesus to die on the cross. So, the missing of the mark by the religious leaders was what caused this man to die and yet he did not really die in the truest sense, which is why the story of Jesus says he rose again. They missed the message he was bringing. He kept saying you are not separated from your Source you just believe you are. And they were offended by this because he said they were One with God. Truth. They were totally focused on this world of effects and not on the Causal Realm. Jesus knew otherwise which is why his story is shared the way it is for our benefit. We cannot die in the truest sense. We are Eternal Being, One with the ONE.

Good and bad, evil, hell, Heaven are ideas used in duality. A meeting ones at the door or level of being able to understand the message being translated from the Causal or Heavenly Realms. Hell for me means a state of mind or a belief of oneself seeing themself as separate from Source. And this idea comes from an underlying belief in being able to sin or doing something 'evil' enough to be completely rejected by GOD. A vengeful GOD idea. I shared about this in the Tree of Life post and used A Course in Miracles to walk backwards in this idea and how distorted this idea really is.

Heaven and/or hell in this worlds way of communication is viewed by most Christians as a place to go after being weighed in the balances. I see Heaven as the 'place' where The ONE IS. Being in the Presence of the ONE. And we don't have to 'wait' around to experience this as Jesus kept sharing. Go within where IT is. It has been hidden in this illusion by our flesh. The flesh is not evil, how can it be? In and of itself the body can do nothing without the Spirit.

Just look at who Jesus hung out with. He hung out with what society would call or define as the 'down and outers', the drunks, the thieves, the prostitutes, the lepers, what was defined as 'unclean', (untouchable and unacceptable). And that is where you would find this man.

Spirit is pure and eternal. Our Authentic Self, One with the ONE.

I apologize for the length, I can hear ones groaning in here. Just sharing from what unfolded for me in the walking backwards journey, retracing of my steps back to Source. . . and still evolving. However, I have Peace now. And this is the determining factor for anyone. Peace.

Peace to you Knowledge, rest well my friend, and you too Kandensnga!

You are Being Divinely led always by your Higher Self that leads you as well as all to our Highest Potential, One with GOD.

Love in Divine Spirit,

Julia

[Knowledge Is Power]

Nice nice, thanks for sharing Kadensnga and juliainkc. I can say that I really resonate with much of what you have written here juliainkc. Especially with good and bad - evil, hell and Heaven being ideas of duality. Sometimes, from my own point of view, religion seems to express more fear then anything else. It is like there saying you have to do something exactly like "this", and go through all "that", just to get "here".

I believe in heaven and hell as experiences which exist on may levels. They are at the lowest levels while here on Earth. In the Spirit worlds, or whatever you wish to call them, those experiences are further amplified. Heaven in these worlds are far more pleasent then heaven on Earth, and hell is far more hellish then on Earth.

As for God, I cant really explain in ways people understand, at least people that are around me. I don't see God in the way much of my friends and family does. They describe God as more of a Deity, or at least that's what I am getting from their explanation. I'm not one to say such a being doesn't exist, however I myself am not to particularly interested in such a being. The God I refer to is the Source from which all things were created, spawned from, and is of which everything in the whole universe, living and non living, is a self expression of.

I cant really explain God - True God, in any other way. It took years for me to express in words the way I just did, I didn't do a very good job of this when I was much younger and ended up confusing and sometimes angering many people, but it is how I felt for a very long time. I just couldn't put it in words before my 17th birthday  . In any case I surely don't believe that their are selected groups of people destined to enjoy heaven anymore then another. We are selves are the judge and jury of where we go, not some man made version of God.

As for Jesus...

Who is he really? Did he even exist as people say? I have nothing to convince me either way, but I believe the words and miracles of the icon himself, speaks for itself. Like Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, and even Michael Jackson, Jesus's miracles did indeed inspire a large number of people. His appearance was also an issue for some, many believing he was black instead of the "white man" portrait of him. From my understanding he was middle eastern, probably looking somewhat similar to "Zohan". Don't know, never met him 

Anyway...

Is he indeed our savior? In what ways is he our savior? He did indeed worn us, in his own words (expression of words to how they spoke back then, which I think is greatly misinterpreted in today's translation of the bible), of the horrors that will befall mankind eventually, which it did. We went through wars, racism, discrimination, crime, and most recently economic crisis.

Like you Julia, I don't really believe God intended for Jesus to die either. It doesn't make sense to me personally, but a lot of things don't at first. Perhaps someday we may find an appropriate assumption (I say assumption because we will never really know) as to why God may have chosen Jesus for such a heavy job. People keep saying he died for our sins. What does this mean?!? People are still sinning today, so what was the point!?. He inspired, but didn't stop anything really. Who's sins did he die for? Those that didn't understand him, or for those that was beating the hell out of him!?

I apologize for the length, I can hear ones groaning in here.

Well I'm not groaning. I appreciate you sharing your beliefs with me here. You know, you said Baki and I have a bit in common. I think you and I do too, at least from what you wrote here 

[Kadensnga]

People keep saying he died for our sins. What does this mean?!? People are still sinning today, so what was the point!?

I think the point was "I came to fulfill all these rediculous prophecies that you believe in, and finally die so that you could be convinced that no man can ever live up to these rediculous standards, and maybe if you feel that your prophecies have been fulfilled, you can finally start allowing yourselves some grace".

"I will give you an excuse to be graceful toward yourselves and one another, since you seem to need one".

What a wonderful day to have spent in this forum without regard for time!

I look forward to journeying more with you knowledge! We seem to be walking closely together today! I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Good nite my new friend.

[juliainkc]

Good Morning Knowledge, Kadensnga and All,

I believe in heaven and hell as experiences which exist on may levels. They are at the lowest levels while here on Earth. In the Spirit worlds, or whatever you wish to call them, those experiences are further amplified. Heaven in these worlds are far more pleasent then heaven on Earth, and hell is far more hellish then on Earth.

I believe that one can experience their reality due to one's depth of belief (Love or Fear based) so yes, the stronger the belief, the more powerful the experience. For myself as I have been shown, it depends on whether the belief is coming from the lower or Higher nature. The more we become aware (realized) of the Truth of our Being, the more we come to experience IT. Otherwise our God will match our belief. If I am ill than my God is a sickly god and so on . . .

As for God, I cant really explain in ways people understand, at least people that are around me. I don't see God in the way much of my friends and family does. They describe God as more of a Deity, or at least that's what I am getting from their explanation. I'm not one to say such a being doesn't exist, however I myself am not to particularly interested in such a being. The God I refer to is the Source from which all things were created, spawned from, and is of which everything in the whole universe, living and non living, is a self expression of.

It isn't something one can explain really. I call it a point and grunt expression. I agree, God is viewed more as a Deity and I feel that this is due to giving weight to the illusion. Believing in the effects more than the Cause or Source.

I cant really explain God - True God, in any other way. It took years for me to express in words the way I just did, I didn't do a very good job of this when I was much younger and ended up confusing and sometimes angering many people, but it is how I felt for a very long time. I just couldn't put it in words before my 17th birthday  . In any case I surely don't believe that their are selected groups of people destined to enjoy heaven anymore then another. We are selves are the judge and jury of where we go, not some man made version of God.

I can relate to the difficulty of putting it into words and 'angering' people. And yes, the collective consciousness has focused on a man made version of the True God.

As for Jesus...

Who is he really? Did he even exist as people say? I have nothing to convince me either way, but I believe the words and miracles of the icon himself, speaks for itself. Like Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, and even Michael Jackson, Jesus's miracles did indeed inspire a large number of people. His appearance was also an issue for some, many believing he was black instead of the "white man" portrait of him. From my understanding he was middle eastern, probably looking somewhat similar to "Zohan". Don't know, never met him 

Who he is, is unique to each one. And I am not here to convince anyone as to his existence yet I have noticed that Jesus is the one people seem to doubt the most as we do not hear ones denying the existence of Buddha or others. And I believe it is due to what his life represented.

The death rebirth process. What happened to him was revealing how the lower nature responds in fear and what fear does by acting out. Too many people in the church dwell on the death aspect of the message and are stuck on it, not moving through it to the rebirth or resurrection experience. From death, dying to relying and depending on the lower natures ways of life and living to total release into the reliance and dependence on I AM, the Source of all our supply. I believe this is due to the fear of thinking that in going through this initiation process, one has to put on robes and walk around chanting like monks and this is not what it means. There is an underlying fear based belief of having to give up everything and live without Joy and that is not what it means. One thinks that they will be separated from life when in fact they will actually experience what Real Life is.

Anyway...

Is he indeed our savior? In what ways is he our savior? He did indeed worn us, in his own words (expression of words to how they spoke back then, which I think is greatly misinterpreted in today's translation of the bible), of the horrors that will befall mankind eventually, which it did. We went through wars, racism, discrimination, crime, and most recently economic crisis.

Like you Julia, I don't really believe God intended for Jesus to die either. It doesn't make sense to me personally, but a lot of things don't at first. Perhaps someday we may find an appropriate assumption (I say assumption because we will never really know) as to why God may have chosen Jesus for such a heavy job. People keep saying he died for our sins. What does this mean?!? People are still sinning today, so what was the point!?. He inspired, but didn't stop anything really. Who's sins did he die for? Those that didn't understand him, or for those that was beating the hell out of him!?

When I say God did not intend for Jesus to die, I mean that in the Spirit sense. The only death ever experienced is a physical death or the death of the lower nature. And in this Light, I can see the message or purpose because we have a Divine Agreement before entering this third dimensional plane and this is why Jesus could do it. He was connected and ever aware of his connection to the Eternal Source of Life and while he experienced the process known as death, he fulfilled the experience by showing back up, to show all the ones asleep to this the realization of the I AM, that 'death' is just a part of the process of changing Energy. There is in the truest sense of the word, no such thing as 'death'. We are Eternal as Source is Eternal.

So looking at it this way, I can say he died as an example for all to see who believed in death and dying and a vengeful God, that we cannot die, because GOD the True GOD is not a vengeful GOD. As to sin, I shared an excerpt in the Creative Seed post on the Angel of Discerment, that sin=missing the mark due to lack of discernment. For me that means, not using the ability through inviting Divine Assistance to sift and sort our what is True and Not True. GOD does not see sin as in this worlds idea of sin being an act of evil or badness. GOD sees sleepers that are being called to wake up to the I AM that we all are as One with GOD. That's the 'GOD" I know.

Well I'm not groaning. I appreciate you sharing your beliefs with me here. You know, you said Baki and I have a bit in common. I think you and I do too, at least from what you wrote here 

I appreciate you too Knowledge and yes, I agree, we do have One Spirit in common! I was just InJoying sensing how you and Baki both liked some similar things. I can InJoy these things with you both as well as being One in Spirit.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts out loud here along with me and All.

InJoy this day Knowledge,

Love in Divine Spirit,

Julia

[Baki Hanma]

Its nice to see that your warming up to the forum. Look at you got your own topic and everything 

I for one, see what you mean, you and Julia. My family are mostly of christian and follow the belief well. I dont particularly care about religion. Its like they are the ones that tell you how to be and what to do other wise you will burn for it. Follow their rules or suffer the result , like they know Gods plan or something.

[zensunni7]

Sin - an ancient word from Hebrew, and before. " Error - error in thought " hardly a reason to go to hell forever. But hell does define the results of your creation  - Thought become things .

As belief is thought practiced, as knowing displaces belief.

[Knowledge Is Power]

Its nice to see that your warming up to the forum. Look at you got your own topic and everything 

I for one, see what you mean, you and Julia. My family are mostly of christian and follow the belief well. I dont particularly care about religion. Its like they are the ones that tell you how to be and what to do other wise you will burn for it. Follow their rules or suffer the result , like they know Gods plan or something.

Yeah, I don't like to be lead, I like to lead or rather I like to lead my own life.

Sin - an ancient word from Hebrew, and before. " Error - error in thought " hardly a reason to go to hell forever. But hell does define the results of your creation  - Thought become things .

As belief is thought practiced, as knowing displaces belief.

Dictionaries are always helpful  , however they do not always capture the essence of the meaning of the word nor the word itself.

[Talker]

Beautiful exchange of thoughts here in this thread. Long and many were my thoughts, as I researched into the Crucifixion, Jesus, sin, and how it fit into the scheme of life.

No easy answers, just digging and more digging.

Appears that Jesus was stepping on many toes in the priesthood of those days.
Young upstart rebel, telling people things contrary to what the priests were putting out. So, like in our current times, they had to shut him up quickly, or lose the authority they possessed.
 
One day long ago, came across information called Huna, that readily got my full attention. Talk about rattling ones belief chain, Huna concepts was in first place doing so.

Without boring you with a long discourse, will sum it up simply.

In Huna beliefs, the only 'sin' was to 'deliberately' cause harm to another.
No more, no less.
But how to correct that deliberately performed 'sin' is where it all becomes a door opener to what later became, that which we now know as, 'conscious and subconscious' mind.
Be Well

[Mina-Laura]

Dear friends,

We discussed the topic of "sin" before (right Julia? )

In our understanding to sin simply means "to miss the mark".

Harming others?
Well what few knows is this VERY important thing:

Whatever we do and whatever thought we have, intention, feeling and so on - it is US who experiences first. Our subconscious. So indeed there is to miss the mark (ignorance) to mistakenly think that what we do has only outward impact.
It first affects us: any reaction, any intention being aware of it or not is first heard and felt by us (subconscious).

Anything we do and everything we do we are the first to experience that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZT9EXfwHS8

Now... perhaps the idea of sin becomes more clear... perhaps now we think with more awareness about the consequence of our actions, thinking and so on.
"love thy neighbour as you love yourself" (the neighbour means anything that is in your proximity being physical or in thought).

[juliainkc]

Hi Dear Laura,

Yes, sin has been an interesting topic. And thank you for sharing this as well and bringing to the forefront this idea that that it is US who experiences first.

Divine Sequential Order. Inside then outside. And in like fashion, it is the same with Unconditional Love or Love. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

The Divine Order of experience. Accept Love of Self first then you are in receiving mode and open the channel to allow the Universal Love of All to flow into and through you and extend this to your neighbor, your outside home guest.

I appreciate you Laura truly.

Love in the Light shining with you,

Julia