Robert Bruce: Meditation is Wrong and Dangerous

[+Explorer+]

Hello Everyone,

Today I read this article by Robert Bruce because I am subscribed to his newsletter and here is what he thinks about "Thoughtlessness"
Pretty Controversial indeed.

Hey Reader,

    Let’s get right to it.

    Why do I think meditation is WRONG and
DANGEROUS?

    Before I answer, let me add fuel to the fire...

    Not only do I think meditation is silly,
I think that most of the behaviors that go
along with it are TOTALLY LAUGHABLE.

    Oh, Robert, here you go being controversial
again...

    I know, I know. I can’t help it.

    I was “born” this way. Maybe it’s something
from another life, who knows.

    Let’s start by defining terms.

 -- Meditation is the activity of clearing
and keeping thoughts from your mind

    It’s a state of thoughtlessness.

    That’s right. Having zero thoughts.

    Now, I don’t know about you, but where I
come from, being “thoughtless” is a bad thing.

    LOL

    Now, meditators around the world will say
that learning to have no thoughts is what you do
to gain control over your mind.

    Sounds like a worthy goal, but I’m not
convinced that being “thoughtless” is necessarily
the way to do that.

    In fact, I KNOW FOR A FACT that the secret
to developing exquisite and acute control over
your mind - is to HAVE THOUGHTS - and to practice
changing and altering them consciously.

    I call these “mental exercises”.

    Here, I’ll explain it another way...

    The key to getting control and flexibility
in your physical body is to USE THE BODY, not
to “not use it”.

    The claim that NOT having thoughts will make
you better at controlling your mind is like
saying that lying on the couch all day and
doing NOTHING will get your physical body into
better, more flexible shape.

    It’s bloody nonsense!

    Sitting around *not thinking* does NOT make
you better at thinking. It makes you better at
being thoughtless.

    LOL

    Personally, I want to be THOUGHTFUL.

    This means, when I meditate, I actually
do EXERCISES, like making pictures, and changing
their size and shape. I adjust the lighting of
the image, and play with the content. I practice
hearing sounds, and feeling feelings.

    I DO THINGS that actually exercise my mind,
like jogging and lifting weights exercises your
body.

*** I DO THINGS. ***

*** I HAVE THOUGHTS. ***

    It’s not about NOT having thoughts, it’s
about learning how to control the thoughts you
have, and having even better ones.

    Understand? This is crucial.

    It boggles my mind that there are yogis
who sit next to rivers and literally are
THOUGHTLESS for 20 years of their life.

    Can you believe that?

    Then of course, since they are thoughtless,
they also are HOMELESS and BROKE and need to
go around bothering people by begging for food
when they are PERFECTLY CAPABLE of making a
living.

    Thoughtlessness and self-inflicted poverty
is COMPLETE SILLINESS.

    I believe that people who are PRODUCTIVE
members of society are FAR MORE SPIRITUAL AND

HELPFUL to the advancement and evolution of our
species than people who dip off into a cave
and waste away in “thoughtlessness” until they
die.

    As far as I’m concerned, that’s a waste of
a life!

    What did they do? They *literally* did
nothing whatsoever.

    My friend, surely that is funny to you, too?

    Because it makes me belly laugh!

    If a Buddhist monk came to me and asked
for advice, I’d tell him to grow up and get a job!

    There’s no cosmic law saying you need to live
in poverty, never get married, and eat strictly
vegetarian.

    Sorry, there just isn’t!

    I’ve raised my kundalini, had astral projections,
and opened my third eye for clairvoyance... and
I live comfortably, have a wife, and eat meat
occasionally.

    I’m a normal guy. If you met me, you wouldn’t
be in awe of how “mystical” I look. Because
I don’t look like the classic mystic. I’m just
a man’s man type of guy with an inclination toward
metaphysics.

    I used to drink and smoke A LOT! Even when
I was making massive psychic breakthroughs!

    A LOT of the conventional wisdom on mysticism
is hit-or-miss, and kind of lame. (Although for
the record I do think it’s best to quit drinking
and smoking)

    There is A LOT of absurdity inside the
religions of both the east and west. And it funnels
down into the very practices that they undergo.

    Painful rituals, blood-letting initiations,
starvation and poverty, body mutilation, and
acts of “thoughtlessness”.

    They are all DISTRACTIONS and DIVERSIONS from
real practical exercises and skill development.

    Here’s the bottom line. If you TRULY want
to develop RAW SPIRITUAL POWER and start having
the ULTIMATE spiritual experiences, it’s time
to DO SOMETHING! This means astral projection.
I’m going to show you how to eject from your
physical body, into your astral body inside
the astral plane. This is a GREAT beginner
practice, because it CONFIRMS for you many of
the spiritual truths we hold dear- immortality,
freedom, evolution, etc.

[Forrest Dean]

Ahh nice read.    Well, I certainly see nothing wrong with what he said.  Makes sense to me.  But I also see nothing wrong with meditation or thoughtlessness.  I also see nothing wrong with riding roller coasters, base jumping, or sleeping upside down like a bat.  Of course each and every individual has their own unique perspectives and must experience certain aspects of life in their own way.  As far as meditation being "wrong" and "dangerous"?  Well again, those are relative terms that have meaning only to the individual who perceives them as being dangerous, and should not pursue that which they perceive as no benefit to themselves.

I've had many extremely vivid conscious projections myself, and all were done with a clear mind.  For myself, "thoughtlessness" is not a state of doing, it is a state of being - experiencing the moment, like laying in the grass and experiencing the wind blowing through the trees with no thought of anything else.  Thoughts are attachments the ego loves to cling to.  For myself, thinking causes me to lose awareness of my conscious self thereby losing consciousness into a deep and forgettable sleep.

I'm sure Robert's methods work great for him as well as many other individuals, but they are definitely not for everyone.  I've tried his methods and they certainly did not work for me.  Again, everyone is unique.  The article was an interesting read though. 

[Don Harmony]

Each to its appropriateness!


Meditation and emptying mind of thoughts is required with regularity - I would associate this with rebooting a computer or a cell phone, and is very similar - our minds become over-saturated with patterns of thinking and keep going like merry-go-rounds.
If effort is not invested to clear our minds of thoughts we may continue on certain detrimental habit forming way of thinking.

Meditation, prayer is very necessary - scientific studies have demonstrated children perform 10 ..100 times better in school when a meditation practice such as Yoga is introduced. These are facts. Also all organs, heart rejuvenate and function more properly.

Now of course one cannot go on and meditate all day long 24/7 unless they are monks or something and that is alright as that's their life scope.

Appropriate focus into action is required for us to be invested in the daily life and to be of service to humanity.

Dear Explorer I would suggest unsubscribing fast from such emailing - we are not human DOings - we are human BEings - the stuff exposed in the emailing you got is actually very dangerous it infiltrated your subconscious with subtle messages of materialistic nature of competitive mind stance - the exact frame of mind the trend of the western society  of constantly producing, doing stuff with such great detriment to the whole planet!!
You can get an inkling also by the language he is using - no mystic will use negative or foul wording whatsoever.


Forest you have indeed achieved a neutral non-judgmental  mind, yet we have 3 minds: neutral, negative and positive and each of them must be used appropriately for a harmonical functioning.
You are skillfully exposing the truth without putting anybody down, yet I say Mr. Robert Bruce all respect to him and his business yet he is by no means mystic, and this comes through in his judgmental attitude. A sensible person should stay away from such.


Peace


Don

[Adrian]

Hello Everyone,

Today I read this article by Robert Bruce because I am subscribed to his newsletter and here is what he thinks about "Thoughtlessness"
Pretty Controversial indeed.

Hey Reader,

    Let’s get right to it.

    Why do I think meditation is WRONG and
DANGEROUS?

    Before I answer, let me add fuel to the fire...

    Not only do I think meditation is silly,
I think that most of the behaviors that go
along with it are TOTALLY LAUGHABLE.

    Oh, Robert, here you go being controversial
again...

    I know, I know. I can’t help it.

    I was “born” this way. Maybe it’s something
from another life, who knows.

    Let’s start by defining terms.

 -- Meditation is the activity of clearing
and keeping thoughts from your mind

    It’s a state of thoughtlessness.

    That’s right. Having zero thoughts.

    Now, I don’t know about you, but where I
come from, being “thoughtless” is a bad thing.

    LOL

    Now, meditators around the world will say
that learning to have no thoughts is what you do
to gain control over your mind.

    Sounds like a worthy goal, but I’m not
convinced that being “thoughtless” is necessarily
the way to do that.

    In fact, I KNOW FOR A FACT that the secret
to developing exquisite and acute control over
your mind - is to HAVE THOUGHTS - and to practice
changing and altering them consciously.

    I call these “mental exercises”.

    Here, I’ll explain it another way...

    The key to getting control and flexibility
in your physical body is to USE THE BODY, not
to “not use it”.

    The claim that NOT having thoughts will make
you better at controlling your mind is like
saying that lying on the couch all day and
doing NOTHING will get your physical body into
better, more flexible shape.

    It’s bloody nonsense!

    Sitting around *not thinking* does NOT make
you better at thinking. It makes you better at
being thoughtless.

    LOL

    Personally, I want to be THOUGHTFUL.

    This means, when I meditate, I actually
do EXERCISES, like making pictures, and changing
their size and shape. I adjust the lighting of
the image, and play with the content. I practice
hearing sounds, and feeling feelings.

    I DO THINGS that actually exercise my mind,
like jogging and lifting weights exercises your
body.

*** I DO THINGS. ***

*** I HAVE THOUGHTS. ***

    It’s not about NOT having thoughts, it’s
about learning how to control the thoughts you
have, and having even better ones.

    Understand? This is crucial.

    It boggles my mind that there are yogis
who sit next to rivers and literally are
THOUGHTLESS for 20 years of their life.

    Can you believe that?

    Then of course, since they are thoughtless,
they also are HOMELESS and BROKE and need to
go around bothering people by begging for food
when they are PERFECTLY CAPABLE of making a
living.

    Thoughtlessness and self-inflicted poverty
is COMPLETE SILLINESS.

    I believe that people who are PRODUCTIVE
members of society are FAR MORE SPIRITUAL AND

HELPFUL to the advancement and evolution of our
species than people who dip off into a cave
and waste away in “thoughtlessness” until they
die.

    As far as I’m concerned, that’s a waste of
a life!

    What did they do? They *literally* did
nothing whatsoever.

    My friend, surely that is funny to you, too?

    Because it makes me belly laugh!

    If a Buddhist monk came to me and asked
for advice, I’d tell him to grow up and get a job!

    There’s no cosmic law saying you need to live
in poverty, never get married, and eat strictly
vegetarian.

    Sorry, there just isn’t!

    I’ve raised my kundalini, had astral projections,
and opened my third eye for clairvoyance... and
I live comfortably, have a wife, and eat meat
occasionally.

    I’m a normal guy. If you met me, you wouldn’t
be in awe of how “mystical” I look. Because
I don’t look like the classic mystic. I’m just
a man’s man type of guy with an inclination toward
metaphysics.

    I used to drink and smoke A LOT! Even when
I was making massive psychic breakthroughs!

    A LOT of the conventional wisdom on mysticism
is hit-or-miss, and kind of lame. (Although for
the record I do think it’s best to quit drinking
and smoking)

    There is A LOT of absurdity inside the
religions of both the east and west. And it funnels
down into the very practices that they undergo.

    Painful rituals, blood-letting initiations,
starvation and poverty, body mutilation, and
acts of “thoughtlessness”.

    They are all DISTRACTIONS and DIVERSIONS from
real practical exercises and skill development.

    Here’s the bottom line. If you TRULY want
to develop RAW SPIRITUAL POWER and start having
the ULTIMATE spiritual experiences, it’s time
to DO SOMETHING! This means astral projection.
I’m going to show you how to eject from your
physical body, into your astral body inside
the astral plane. This is a GREAT beginner
practice, because it CONFIRMS for you many of
the spiritual truths we hold dear- immortality,
freedom, evolution, etc.

Well I knew Robert Bruce personally, extremely well, until we had a somewhat abrupt "parting of the ways".  He participated on my other forum, The Astral Pulse, for a time.

We parted for various reasons, but the article above highlights just one such reason - that and his "negs".

I know he means well in his own way, but I regard much of what he says as highly counterproductive at best.

Mediation with "images" is not meditation - it is something else but not meditation.

True meditation is for example Zazen - Zen Meditation - which not only expands the Consciousness but also brings a state of "No-Mind" which is a crucial aspect of attaining Enlightenment - our main task - in broad terms - on Earth.

Only when the Mind is Clear do we See Clearly.

Of course Meditation alone cannot bring Enlightenment - or is unlikely to - because we are also here to Experience and Transcend.

To achieve this we must be in a State of Zazen - "No-Mind" - perpetually, i.e., Never "Think", but simply "Be".

For RB - who has many people following him - to say "meditation is dangerous", is, in and of itself - dangerous.

The "excercises" RB talks of is not "meditation", it is concentration, which is certainly a valuable ability, but will not bring Enlightenment.

I am not at all surprised that RB wrote the words you quoted - each to his own

In Love, Light and Service,

Adrian.

[Forrest Dean]

Well I knew Robert Bruce personally, extremely well, until we had a somewhat abrupt "parting of the ways".  He participated on my other forum, The Astral Pulse, for a time.

Yeah, I remember when that occurred.  Wow, it seems like ages ago.

[Adrian]

Well I knew Robert Bruce personally, extremely well, until we had a somewhat abrupt "parting of the ways".  He participated on my other forum, The Astral Pulse, for a time.

Yeah, I remember when that occurred.  Wow, it seems like ages ago.

I think it was over 10 years ago

I created Astral Pulse in February 2002.

In Love, Light and Service,

Adrian.

[Forrest Dean]

Yeah, I remember when I first came upon AP, and I'm not even sure how I stumbled across it.  If I remember correctly I think I was doing some research on speed reading, and a search utility I was using called Copernicus 2000 (before the days of Google) brought up your site.  I lurked there for a while until I finally registered in Jan of 2003.  It's hard to believe it's been 10 years.  It's funny because it seems like forever ago, but at the same time it feels like it was just yesterday.  

[Irreverent Monk]

Well stated Adrian

I have meditated for 4 decades, and I owe much to the practice. In all those years I saw but one fear of danger, using it as an escape from realities, like getting high - going into long meditations to avoid. Yet as the mind became clearer and stronger, this folly was seen. Other than that - I have to consider meditation the greatest of gifts in my life.
I also must concur with Adrians perspective of image meditations and guided ones as not being a true meditation, but again a pleasant diversion. Dangers and fears can be injected into anything we choose, and will surely become reality if left to tend the fields of imagination, yet meditation is not an area where fear can take root.
To each their own as Adrian stated - for me the Zen of my practice is the nonthinking of true meditation. It is a part of me as breathing, waking and walking. It brought a terribly angry, self-destructive, and fear filled young man to fruition of a mature one. Had I not meditated I would be a faded photograph and memory of a lost potential.

[DAHS]

Explorer: Just a question. Was the newsletter from "Astral Bob"? If so, these are written by a PR company (similar happens with the newsletters of Steve Jones). The main aim is to get you to pay for courses, etc. On the Astral Dynamics forum, some people have in the past queried whether the content of these letters bear any resemblance to the views of Robert Bruce himself.

Some while ago, I received a newsletter allegedly sent by Steve Jones. It said something like, "Make 2012 into the year when you kick some serious butt". I sent an e-mail to their support, saying that such aggressive language seemed quite inappropriate and querying whether it had been written personally by him. They replied that they would inform the PR company which had written the newsletter of my views.

Regarding Robert Bruce, the forum for Astral Dynamics even has a meditation section! Would that exist if he were opposed to such ideas? I only ask the question, I can't say for sure.

[Adrian]

Well stated Adrian

I have meditated for 4 decades, and I owe much to the practice. In all those years I saw but one fear of danger, using it as an escape from realities, like getting high - going into long meditations to avoid. Yet as the mind became clearer and stronger, this folly was seen. Other than that - I have to consider meditation the greatest of gifts in my life.
I also must concur with Adrians perspective of image meditations and guided ones as not being a true meditation, but again a pleasant diversion. Dangers and fears can be injected into anything we choose, and will surely become reality if left to tend the fields of imagination, yet meditation is not an area where fear can take root.
To each their own as Adrian stated - for me the Zen of my practice is the nonthinking of true meditation. It is a part of me as breathing, waking and walking. It brought a terribly angry, self-destructive, and fear filled young man to fruition of a mature one. Had I not meditated I would be a faded photograph and memory of a lost potential.

Yes.

True Meditation - which for me, not necessarily for others - is Zazen, we are not "escaping" Reality - We are Finding and Realising Reality.

Non-Thinking, No-Mind is True.

The Pinnacle is to Live Every Moment in this Way, not only in formal Meditation.

Yes it is a challenge - but what else is there?

In Love, Light and Service,

Adrian.

[+Explorer+]

Thank You all for the feedback! Just wanted to understand why he wrote that type of newsletter.

Dear Adrian,

What do you think of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation technique? It brought eastern spirituality to the West. Is it a good technique for spiritual development? This is the University I plan on attending in Fall 2012, and will be studying Vedic Science: @www.mum.edu

[Adrian]

Thank You all for the feedback! Just wanted to understand why he wrote that type of newsletter.

Dear Adrian,

What do you think of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation technique? It brought eastern spirituality to the West. Is it a good technique for spiritual development? This is the University I plan on attending in Fall 2012, and will be studying Vedic Science: @www.mum.edu

Dear Explorer, I am not personally familiar with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation technique, but I have just done a quick Google search and yes - it seems remarkably similar to Zazen - which is excellent, and what I would expect of any Meditation - which is not actually a "technique" - it simply Is.

The article I found included thus quotation:

"Transcendental Meditation opens the awareness to the infinite reservoir of energy, creativity, and intelligence that lies deep within everyone. By enlivening this most basic level of life, Transcendental Meditation is that one simple procedure which can raise the life of every individual and every society to its full dignity, in which problems are absent and perfect health, happiness, and a rapid pace of progress are the natural features of life." - Maharishi

I broadly agree, and this is the basis of all True Meditation.

Vedic Science?  My only observation, just being pedantic, is that you cannot turn the Ancient Vedas in to a science - it should be better called "Vedic History" or "Vedic Studies". The Ancient Hindu culture is one of the oldest on the planet, going back tens of thousands of years.

But what is in a name?  I guess "science" sounds more attractive  Definitely an excellent subject to take anyway - I am sure you will enjoy and gain much from it.

In Love, Light and Service,

Adrian.

[Irreverent Monk]

I began with TM in the early 70's. I still practice it essentially yet Adrian is correct in it is very similar to ZaZen. Although the Maharishi brought TM to the west, it was in the late 1800's that it was introduced into American minds. There was a great surge in thinking and exploring away from traditional religions during that time period. Regardless of origins, I feel TM is well worth the exploration and practice. Yet it is very expensive to learn in the US. In the 70's it was being mass marketed by firms from New York. It was $200.00 to learn then, it is now $1,200.00 to learn from a certified teacher. So exploring it online is a much better way LOL.

[Adrian]

I began with TM in the early 70's. I still practice it essentially yet Adrian is correct in it is very similar to ZaZen. Although the Maharishi brought TM to the west, it was in the late 1800's that it was introduced into American minds. There was a great surge in thinking and exploring away from traditional religions during that time period. Regardless of origins, I feel TM is well worth the exploration and practice. Yet it is very expensive to learn in the US. In the 70's it was being mass marketed by firms from New York. It was $200.00 to learn then, it is now $1,200.00 to learn from a certified teacher. So exploring it online is a much better way LOL.

I agree, moreover - Meditation does not cost a penny.

There is nothing to "learn" - only Be.

My advice to anyone who wishes to begin Meditations would be to Google "ZaZen"  - check out a few sites - and just proceed from there.

We are always happy to offer advice here of course.

In Love, Light and Service,

Adrian.

[+Explorer+]

Thank you for the thorough responses Adrian and Irreverent Monk.

I was just wondering if attending this University would be the right decision for my path. I have to do this Transcendental Meditation twice a day during school and I want to make sure I am not joining a cult or that I won't get brainwashed in any way. From the website, the University seems like  no other and I just got tired of the conventional schooling system which is why I chose Consciousness-Based Education and I want to be involved in it due to the inner development and community aspect. Ever since I have been aware of Metaphysics, I want to study this esoteric field because your book absolutely changed my outlook on life. I decided to study Vedic "Science" because it covers the different world religions, philosophies, consciousness, and the Vedas.  I will be learning Sanskrit and I just wanted to know if this University would be aiding my development. Transcendental Meditation becomes even more advanced through the TM Sidhi technique that they teach but they charge a grand amount of money for it and they say you can't learn it by yourself, it has to be taught by someone who is qualified and that is what I don't understand. Overall, the community is very spirituality oriented which is why I decided to go there and the organic vegetarian meals are just a bonus. Attending this University is a very big change for me since I will be moving to Iowa and away from my parents. I found about them from their facebook page/Ads and if it wasn't for them, I would not be going to college at all for reasons previously stated.  I feel like I still need to develop in order to be ready for the Singularity, whatever may occur during these paradigm-shifting times.

@DAHS - That is a good point, we don't know 100% if RB wrote that newsletter, if so, why would he have a meditation section. I used to have RB on facebook which had photos of him and he would always post his newsletters as status updates, but who knows if he writes every single one of his newsletters.. Marketing plays a big role in marketing for FinerMinds/Steve Jones.