Jesus, crucifixion and the resurrection

[Brent]

I want to begin by asking a question that I have been seeking an answer to for some time.
If this topic is or has already been discussed please show me to it so I can absorb, and reflect.

My question goes like this.
I have read some of the discussions on Jesus by Adrian, and resonate with this as truth. What I don't have a great understanding of, is what was the true meaning of the crucifixion and the resurrection?

I am saying I just don’t know how to reconcile Him coming to teach metaphysical truths and about the coming of the new age; with him knowing how and when his life would end,  for instance He cried out to the father,
•   Why have you forsaken me
•   Forgive them they know not what they do
You see this doesn’t make sense, he is speaking to himself?

I am grateful for your insight,
Brent

[zensunni7]

Greetings Brent,

Welcome to the forum.
The written records and texts of Jesus are many and almost all very incomplete. Mother church stole and led the way to suppressing Jesus as much as possible long ago, so only the divine remained, and the divine is very manipulative within church written dogma.
They basically stole or destroyed the real Human Jesus to write their own version of him. Quite successfully.Jesus was Human as we are, knowing the total blackness of a Godless thought and e-motion, having to experience the blackness of no hope, no light at all. Forsaken, as we all have felt in this experience of life at one moment or another.

But it is all history - beyond knowing the truth of unless we seek that truth within ourselves. When we find it, we feel its fullness and its truth. It is truth based in undeniability.

Darrell

[Larry]

Hi Brent, welcome and enjoy.          The most common thread that runs through this forum is, We have discovered individually that we are God/Source. We are the crowning touch of all of his creations. We are Him. Each individual one of us is Him in our own unique way. We individually are as much a part of Him as the Christ is. For example: I will always be that part of Source that is Me. As you know you can"t kill Source. So I will be forever. For now these bodies are not lasting long enough. But when the quickening happens they will have an unlimited warranty. If Jesus was crucified, He would have had to give up His warranty. We know that He had the power to keep it active. If he did die, He had to have removed Himself from His body.       Just to remind you, Jesus/Christ is our brother. We all have the same Father. Without the Father, We would not exist. Without Us He would not exist.     Welcome to the awakening. Jump on in, the water is fine.      Larry

[TheBaron]

Hello Brent, Welcome to the forums.  I was raised baptist as well so I can relate to the transition.  Adrian has pointed out some key factors in the Jesus myth, however, with out stepping on any toes, I personally can not declare that Jesus did indeed live at one point in time.  Adrian, and others, may have a more intuitive view on this subject than myself, all I have is years of fine tune studying.  I have studied the bible many times and the works of scholars and the history of the time to reach the conclusions I have.  Jesus may be no more real than King Arthur or Achilles, which does still leave room for a real person named thus, but highly unlikely.  Of course studying anything you can on the subject will help, however great references to study regarding this subject is the movie Zeitgeist which can be found at www.zeitgeistmovie.com, the book Who Wrote The New Testament? The Making of the Christian Myth by Burton L. Mack is very helpful but not free (I bought my copy at Barnes & Noble for $17.95) and of course my own personal book which I have hosted for free at Illuminati specifically chapter 6 called The Bible: A Perfect Myth which is a compilation of Zeitgeist, Burton Mack's research, and the research of others.  Once again, not to step on anyone's toes, everyone has made points that I would make and have made in my writings, however my thoughts are best comprised in the text I have already written.  I believe whole-heartedly in the message that Adrian is sending out, hence my membership on this forum, and I only hope to add to a more in depth explanation of your questions at hand.  I hope this has been helpful.

Much Love,
Brandon

[Mina-Laura]

Dear Brent,

I want to begin by asking a question that I have been seeking an answer to for some time.
If this topic is or has already been discussed please show me to it so I can absorb, and reflect.

My question goes like this.
I have read some of the discussions on Yeshua by Adrian, and resonate with this as truth. What I don't have a great understanding of, is what was the true meaning of the crucifixion and the resurrection?

I am saying I just don’t know how to reconcile Him coming to teach metaphysical truths and about the coming of the new age; with him knowing how and when his life would end,  for instance He cried out to the father,
•   Why have you forsaken me
•   Forgive them they know not what they do
You see this doesn’t make sense, he is speaking to himself?

I am grateful for your insight,
Brent

Time comes in one's development when they move from the outer into reflecting it upon their inner. Experience with the Bible in general is very much like that.

It starts with reading it for information, then later on in life at a certain stage for inspiration.

Hopefully and luckily in many faiths based on Bible such as Christianity, Islam, Jewish, and etc... the information/inspiration is taught from start in an very open minded way - however this is not the norm experience.

Anyway another stage comes after and that belongs to a higher realm of correspondence or relating deep within with the significance of such events as the ones read in the bible -is more like inspiration at a higher level.

Adrian will tell you that perhaps the Crucifixion event may have not even happened. I would beg to deffer but of course at a more subtle level. I would never in a million years enter into an argument regarding the validity of historical facts. The way I look at it: is a story depicting this one man and is trying to tell me something.

We have establishes at some point here in this Forum that "everything is spiritual". And so is the "Crucifixion" and related. The symbolism behind this word is simply astounding. You will see as you start reading more and more, and attune more into this way of thinking. I will not go any further at this point because it will be too confusing, just keep in mind that there's more, there's always much more to everything, thus to the questions at hand. Keeping this in Mind the answers I will give you next go very much along the same lines, or.. they are simply answers. Not "The Answers".

1. But Yeshua was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.

First of all let's get some truths straight. One of them is:
- Yeshua was a human fully realised within - at the highest possible form of human evolution.

Imagine a human at the mercy of a primitive mob...  in agony, punished unjustly - to our mode of thinking is beyond bizarre and utterly un-acceptable ... imagine anyone in same situation... helpless in a hopeless situation in which you can clearly see your ending. What would go through the mind?? what are ...'last minute' thoughts Regrets, hate, disbelief, .. ?!?
At such moments what comes out is not processed through normal thinking thus is only your essence that can possibly come out. (expressed in your attitude, way of thinking, looking at things, etc..).

Out of Yeshua at that crucial point come out one thing: 'forgiveness'. Nothing else

Not thinking about himself, his body, what was done to him, how he was treated. I mean for God sake a man is in supreme agony and others can only think about ripping the result: who is going to get the most valuable garment...
(For most of today's people fortunately that is an attitude beyond imaginable; because we have seen it time and again on how at times of great disasters and misfortune most humans are moved into a prayer stance in front at the news). However going back to the Crucifixion times you have humans at very distant points in their inner evolution. Yeshua and the Mob.

In the face of all adversity and excruciating suffering the human in Yeshua showed his essence: love and forgiveness, ...supreme understanding: they do not know what they are doing


Another truth about Yeshua is:
- Since very small, possible since birth (consciously) he knew his job, his mission here on Earth. Also his ending, and he went ahead with it and through with it all the way, in a composed, accepting state. I mean if there ever was anyone of this planet going with the "Flow" .. Yeshua is the ideal example.

And about the ninth hour Yeshua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Again, what is the 1st logical idea that comes to Mind?? a sign of desperation in the face of the trial??

If one tends to think like so is called "reactive thinking". Such is the way of most people. How many times you have said something and the reaction of what you got back was very, very, far removed from what you really meant. If you are in a relationship or married I bet a lot !! (..lol..) But it can happen at any time, with anyone. It can even happen here in this Forum ...

However, for an evolved human like Yeshua there were no wasted words, or attitude. So something like: my God, why hast thou forsaken me... sounds pretty lamenting and ... really unconscious statement - something totally unexpected from Yeshua.

So, if one is familiar with Bible in general they will recall same words being spoken elsewhere, before by other teacher - and that is the gentle, musical David in his Psalm 22.

David, (or later on King David) means from the Hebrew word pronounced daw-veed, meaning beloved. He indeed was beloved and to a gentle artistic heart his Psalms would speak a lot.

So I would not go here along the mainstream religion talking about King Davis as being a prophet of the coming Messiah.

I would just say that Yeshua was an erudite and he knew the Psalms by heart same as he knew all the Books. 

How many times in our lives when we need to say something of significance we just go and give a citation, a metaphor ?? which best describes everything...

So, here is Psalm 22,

(I would be curious what thoughts and insights you come up with and after you read it, and reflect again upon Crucifixion? Remember the world of spirit is the world of functioning at a higher vibration than what we normally are accustomed with, and the purpose of such exercise is meant to raise you in your consciousness, thus you may find yourself intrigued that coming up with "the Answer" may not be that important anymore)





A Psalm of David.


My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Why art Thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but Thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest.

Yet Thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them. To Thee they cried, and were saved; in Thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.

But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people. All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads; "He committed his cause to The Lord; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

Yet Thou art He who took me from the womb; Thou didst keep me safe upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me Thou hast been my God. Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.

Many bulls [Bully] encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast; my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death. Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet - I can count all my bones--they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.

But Thou, O Lord, be not far off! O Thou my help, hasten to my aid! Deliver my soul [Where Is Your Soul?] ;from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!

I will tell of Thy Name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee: You who fear The Lord, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify Him, and stand in awe of Him, all you sons of Israel! For He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hid His face from him, but has heard, when he cried to Him.

From Thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear Him. The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek Him shall praise The Lord! May your hearts live for ever! All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to The Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before Him. For dominion belongs to The Lord, and He rules over the nations.

Yea, to Him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before Him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive. Posterity shall serve Him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation, and proclaim His deliverance to a people yet unborn, that He has wrought it." (Psalm 22:1-31 RSV)


Brent my beloved, to the man in search for truth "everything is spiritual', and every story has a lesson meant to help us raise in our consciousness.


love


P.S. I had to go back and correct something: I replaced Jesus with Yeshua.
At least on some things we totally agree with Adrian: one is that Jesus name was Yeshua, and another one is that Yeshua was/is God, Source...   http://www.messianic.com/articles/yeshua.htm

[TheBaron]

Very well put Laura.  There can and is a spiritual relevance to everything we do.  Even the act of a morning or nightly routine can be viewed as a spiritual process.  Taking a shower can not only wash the body but the soul, and using the facilities can rid your body of excess waste physically and spiritually.  With in every blade of grass and ever text of scripture there is a 'truth' to be had.  Every mythology has been wrote with the idea of morality and spirituality in mind.  The 'truth,' 'the answer' or as Laura so delicately put it 'an answer' can be found within the individual.  This is the hardest part of examining reality.  What is true when there are many truths?  What is true to me?  What is true to you?  Is there an underlying truth for both?  I don't have those answers for you my friend, just more riddles.  All I can say is that the Bible as Historical Documentation is far from it.  But what is factual?  I talk about this in my book as well and shall indulge more here.  Historical documentation is the account of some if not one of the individuals at that point in time from that point of perspective.  What one person writes may have happened or may not have happened at all.  I did not personally know Jesus and I don't know anyone (of sane mind(what is sane?)) who has.  I also did not personally know George Washington and I don't know anyone who has.  Whose to say that George Washington is any more real than Jesus?  True there's a large time difference and a large difference in documentation and relics, but on the basic level who am I to believe in the long run?  That is the problem with studying history.  Sometimes it's best just to take things at face value and walk away with the lessons at hand.  However organized religions try to alter that lesson to force you to be the person they want you to be, and that is where I personally draw the line and I am pretty sure Adrian would agree.  If you're looking for a historical truth to the bible, my writings offer you what I can and at this point what I believe anyone can.  If you want a spiritual truth to the bible, I think Laura's is beautiful.  If you want a mixture of the two, Mr. Cooper has done an astounding job.

[juliainkc]

Hello Brent,

A very warm welcome to the forums. I Heartfully InJoy seeing new members jump in and participate. Thank you and Brandon. Namaste.

I love diversity and this subject is prone to it. Let's ride together...

Darrell, you and I vibe on the same Ray and yes, there are others here as well yet right now I am adressing Darrell. And those on the same ray do not mind.

Greetings Brent,

Welcome to the forum.

The written records and texts of Jesus are many and almost all very incomplete.

Mother church stole and led the way to suppressing Jesus as much as possible long ago, so only the divine remained, and the divine is very manipulative within church written dogma.

They basically stole or destroyed the real Human Jesus to write their own version of him. Quite successfully.

Jesus was Human as we are, knowing the total blackness of a Godless thought and e-motion, having to experience the blackness of no hope, no light at all. Forsaken, as we all have felt in this experience of life at one moment or another.

But it is all history - beyond knowing the truth of unless we seek that truth within ourselves. When we find it, we feel its fullness and its truth. It is truth based in undeniability.

Darrell

Excellent.

Hi Brent, welcome and enjoy.          

The most common thread that runs through this forum is, We have discovered individually that we are God/Source.

We are the crowning touch of all of his creations. We are Him.

Each individual one of us is Him in our own unique way. We individually are as much a part of Him as the Christ is. For example: I will always be that part of Source that is Me. As you know you can"t kill Source. So I will be forever.

For now these bodies are not lasting long enough. But when the quickening happens they will have an unlimited warranty. If Jesus was crucified, He would have had to give up His warranty. We know that He had the power to keep it active.

If he did die, He had to have removed Himself from His body.      

Just to remind you, Jesus/Christ is our brother. We all have the same Father. Without the Father, We would not exist. Without Us He would not exist.     Welcome to the awakening. Jump on in, the water is fine.      Larry

Excellent

Hello Brent, Welcome to the forums. 

I was raised baptist as well so I can relate to the transition.  Adrian has pointed out some key factors in the Jesus myth, however, with out stepping on any toes, I personally can not declare that Jesus did indeed live at one point in time.  Adrian, and others, may have a more intuitive view on this subject than myself, all I have is years of fine tune studying. 

I have studied the bible many times and the works of scholars and the history of the time to reach the conclusions I have.  Jesus may be no more real than King Arthur or Achilles, which does still leave room for a real person named thus, but highly unlikely.  Of course studying anything you can on the subject will help, however great references to study regarding this subject is the movie Zeitgeist which can be found at www.zeitgeistmovie.com, the book Who Wrote The New Testament? The Making of the Christian Myth by Burton L. Mack is very helpful but not free (I bought my copy at Barnes & Noble for $17.95) and of course my own personal book which I have hosted for free at Illuminati specifically chapter 6 called The Bible: A Perfect Myth which is a compilation of Zeitgeist, Burton Mack's research, and the research of others. 

Once again, not to step on anyone's toes, everyone has made points that I would make and have made in my writings, however my thoughts are best comprised in the text I have already written. 

I believe whole-heartedly in the message that Adrian is sending out, hence my membership on this forum, and I only hope to add to a more in depth explanation of your questions at hand.  I hope this has been helpful.

Much Love,
Brandon

Much Love to you Brandon, I appreciate your unique voice in these discussions, you are adding your unique depth of experience to the experience and I sincerely and genuinely appreciate your Presence. Namaste.


Laura, I love you genuinely, I will not insert your post due to length yet it is very much a part of this discussion. I leave to all to read it.


Back to the future ~

I want to begin by asking a question that I have been seeking an answer to for some time.
If this topic is or has already been discussed please show me to it so I can absorb, and reflect.

My question goes like this.
I have read some of the discussions on Jesus by Adrian, and resonate with this as truth. What I don't have a great understanding of, is what was the true meaning of the crucifixion and the resurrection?

I am saying I just don’t know how to reconcile Him coming to teach metaphysical truths and about the coming of the new age; with him knowing how and when his life would end,  for instance He cried out to the father,

•   Why have you forsaken me
•   Forgive them they know not what they do


You see this doesn’t make sense, he is speaking to himself?

I am grateful for your insight,
Brent

Yes Brent He is ... just roll this one around for awhile, while going on and playing with 'other things' why? because I am sharing something with you.

You always have your answer. Truth. It's just when you look up from play unexpectedly and laugh because you 'see' IT looking right at you.


Loving you All with Clear Intention,

Julia

[Mina-Laura]

Dear Brandon

Thank you very much for kind words.

Very well put Laura. 

I made a point long time ago to be attentive to the elements that made the great Masters; they are my role models. With Jesus or Yeshua.. I have a very intimate relationship with.

Oh you know what? I am going to watch that Zeitgeist movie right now, thank you for the link, I knew about it but never got around to see it. Tonight's the night. How is Michigan? here in Toronto it snows beautifully. Like a Fairy Tale.



love

[Mina-Laura]

Dear Julia,

Laura, I love you genuinely, I will not insert your post due to length yet it is very much a part of this discussion. I leave to all to read it.

Gracious as always.

I love you too!

[TheBaron]

Oh you know what? I am going to watch that Zeitgeist movie right now, thank you for the link, I knew about it but never got around to see it. Tonight's the night. How is Michigan? here in Toronto it snows beautifully. Like a Fairy Tale.

Just got home from visiting the in laws and it's cold.  They've been claiming for the past three nights we'd be receiving a ton of snow, like 16 inches, however we haven't even seen an inch. 

I've only been to Toronto briefly while switching planes and it seemed like a lovely city.  These days I'm envious of you Canadians, and I often hope that you'll just swallow up us Michiganders, considering most Americans view us the same anyway, LoL.

[Brent]

Yes I have seen the zeitgeist movie;
Right after I watched it I did some research on the first 1/3, (the religion section), and found that much of what the movie claims about past spiritual leader’s births and deaths was untrue, maybe some was true?? But when you mix a lot of untruths and sprinkle in some truth; you lose credibility, and this is unfortunate for this documentary because this loose beginning discredits the whole movie, and it does raise some valuable political questions.

Back to the subject;
There is a lot for me to digest here, thank you all, for your thoughts, and commentary. Man! The time and thought you guys put into your offered thoughts is awesome, Darrel, Larry, Brandon, Laura and Julia
Thank you very much!
It will take some time to digest.
Namaste,
Brent

[zensunni7]

The movie raised many points that have basically been debated since religion began its long journey to control the worlds people, Jesus, and of course God. Religion, politics, and big business are the same beast, self devouring in the end.
I watched the movie when it first came out, nothing new really, just an update on the conspiracies and the second one was just as ominous as the first. Religion tends to ignore any actual new facts that appear and sciences discrediting of their ' facts ' as they have been layed out by Mother Church.
Laura actually summed up her long dissertation on Jesus with a truth that all the conspiracy hunting will lead you to - it is a relationship that reveals the truth. In the end of the research, the ideas, and theories, we walk away not really knowing more than we started with.
Yet a relationship with Christ energy reveals all we need to really understand, it a matter of heart, not science or conspiracy.
It is as so many do- that the conspiracy idea's, whatever they may be are mere finger pointing on a broader scale. Like when someone calls you on your BS - you say it was a misinterpretation of the facts, always pointing outward away from Self.

If all they say in the movie was absolute truth, what would it change?
But developing a Self relationship and one with the larger picture will bring peace and knowledge via yourSelf.

Darrell

[Mina-Laura]

Dear Brent,

Yes I have seen the zeitgeist movie;
Right after I watched it I did some research on the first 1/3, (the religion section), and found that much of what the movie claims about past spiritual leader’s births and deaths was untrue, maybe some was true??

So, do you remember what was not accurate?

I watched about 1 hour and for some reason it reminded me of communist atheist propaganda.

I think one of the major problems is that people here do not learn ancient history, religions, etc. When young it was part of school curriculum, and what wasn't we just found and read - it was very interesting. Especially the ancient Greece, Mesopotamia, and everything that was recorded by ancient historians. That was one of the reasons why I related so well with Adrian's book, in some ways it reminded me of what I read before, just the problem is that when facts are presented with clear propaganda intention they loose their magic.

In some ways I understand this trend against religion - for people's Mind raised knowing only that can be very limited.

love

[Brent]

Hi Laura,
I was trying to answer this without redoing the research (as you know it takes a long time) but I don’t feel I can answer fairly without redoing some research. Now I am not saying the movie is good or bad, I am just saying, for me, it has lost it’s credibility and therefore, I don’t take it seriously;

After I watched the movie I was curious so I did research on some of mentioned,

For instance Krishna was not born of a virgin; his mother had eight children before him, found at http://www.sanatan.org/en/campaigns/KJ/birth.htm
He was born in September,
http://www.dlshq.org/religions/krishna_jan.htm

He was not crucified, his followers say he didn’t even die, he just disappeared and reappeared. http://adishakti.org/_/lord_krishna_the_supreme_lord.htm

Buddha was born to a Queen, she was married, of-course to the King, the story does not say she was a virgin, so, it is possible I suppose, he was born in May.
http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/arty/his-life/birth.htm

He died very peacefully and beautifully

“The Buddha lay on a couch spread between two giant sal trees. The ancient texts say the trees blossomed out of season and sweet-smelling flowers scattered over His couch. Then, lying on His right side, calm and composed, the Great Being entered a profound state of deep meditative bliss and passed away (entered Parinibbana, the final decease of an All-Enlightened Buddha). A light spread over His face and then His body.”
http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/arty/his-life/birth.htm

Now, I am not steaking a position  on the truth or lack thereof, in these stories, I am just suggesting that the claims of the Movie Zeitgiest, ought to be considered for legitimacy before accepting them as fact.

Thank you for letting me share,

Brent

[Brent]

Friends,
After reading and rereading the above posts and pondering, I get that this is not a question that is easily answered,

I did realize that the Bible was used for control by power hungry people and organizations of the past, so I had been thinking that I would only read the Bible for the words written in red; however, I had never considered that portions may be incomplete and or purposely mistranslated or made up, so thank you for giving me this to consider/ponder.

(I know, I know, this was very naive, but remember, I just ‘began to wake up’ a few years ago, I have a lot of catching up to do)

Anyway, after pondering your comments and ideas, for a few days, here is a concept I want to run past you guys,

I think that Yahshua, living as the Christ
(Ok, for debate I understand, but please allow for the sake of this discussion),
knew that one of our largest and most difficult obstacles to our spiritual growth is our inability to forgive ourselves, combined with our feeling of unworthiness. IE, when we try to convince ourselves that we are worthy, that we are Devine expressions of God, it is our own self judging and guilt that gets in the way or keeps us from being able to accept this Truth to our core.

I think that one possible reason for the way his death happened, was to give humanity the ability to see that we are worthy and to get us over the guilt to accept forgiveness.

I know, some will say, forgiveness for what? And I, at one point felt this way also, but I now see that if we are not diligent, we humans would continually bombard ourselves with condemnation and guilt, ‘I’m not good enough’, ‘I’m not kind enough’, ‘I don’t give enough’ etc…

What are your thoughts?
Brent