Huh!?!?

[Inguma]

Hi Dana!

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, and yes you do make a lot of sense  

I read your post and couldnt remember the name of the many worlds person for a good five minutes, but I believe his name is Everett! I have read the reference a few times but never really looked into his work. I have heard it forms a complete unified fields theory, which would be very impressive. Will have to read up on, thanks for the reference.

Yes, I am taking the classical view in my approach to this quantum issue. Honestly, this is partly to play devils advocate, since I really would like to see if there is evidence to support the view that that it is the effect of consciousness rather than just the measuring instruments which causes the quanta to take a certain form. I should have thought this would not be untenable to test to a certain extent - for instance, running mind over matter experiments with effects on the quantum scale in parellel with tests on the macroscopic scale should highlight a greater effectiveness if this were the case.
But otherwise, and I really really hate myself for saying this because occams razor is over-applied so much and often wholly inapproriately usually and with heavy belief and emotional bias, but in the absence of other information, I think it is appropriate to say that the first conclusion would be the simplest one. That is - that it is the act of taking measurements which affects the quanta, and before this instance it is simply that we dont know where they are, rather than taking the much more mystical approach and saying the quanta is everywhere until consciouness is brought to bear upon it.
Hmmm.
Yet still, perhaps there is truth in both statements. And, because the act of measuring does cause an effect, it may be impossible to honestly and completely say either way, in which case we would have to rely on theory. And Everetts argument would seem to go beyond this argument - at least on whether the quanta occupy all states or just one. However, I find it hard to see how consciousness is brought into the argument. I will have to have a deeper think on the Bohms model I think, maybe it will reveal something to me!

Ahh..I think this post is rather jumbled. Sorry about that! I hope you understand my often contradictory mumblings.   I guess I also have difficulty writiing down what I am thinking - often because what I am thinking is often a running argument going on in my head!!

Rob

[Adrian]

Hello everyone,

I could write alot about quantum physics being a particular interest of mine, in particular the work of David Bohm who in my opinion has it right.

However, as with all science it is very easy to get too involved with theories and counter-theories etc..

What we can say is this however. The most basic "unit" of "substance" in the Universe may be called the "Quanta". I deliberately capitalise "Quanta" because Quanta is God, or if you prefer "Spirit", it is the infinitely intelligent, conscious, living "building block" of the Universe of which we are all aspects.

Rising above the academic scientific aspects of this discussion we know that beyond the physical world everything is affected by thought, or, in the context of this dicussion by "observing" my definition of "observing" being concentrating on a specific "thing".  

In the Astral worlds, whether after passing on or in an Out of Body state, this is an absolutely undisputable fact. When you focus your Mind on a particular "thing", Quanta arrange themselves in the same form as that "thing". This happens at either an individual level or a consensual level. In the case of an individual level unless the thought is maintained the effect on Quanta is transient, and the object of the thought dissipates due to lack of "observation". However, in the Astral there is every type of locale known to mankind as well as much that isn't, which remain almost infinitely. These can be anything from say a tent to a vast city, larger than anything seem on earth. These are what I call "persistent" structures, because they are the direct result of billions of people focussing on them and believing in them, so the Quanta maintain their presence, form and structure under the influence of continuous observation. If everyone in the Astral ceased to observe these "Quantum structures" then they would simply dissipate into the Energy, or Spirit from whence they came.

This is why we can talk about "Quantum potential". Quanta exist as the "potential" to be anything and everything, but that potential is only realised when they are observed. Again, this is fact not speculation.

The same applies on Earth, but because here we have a much lower level of vibration and correspondingly higher density, the process takes much longer. The fact still remains however that their is only one set of Universal Laws for the entire Universe, and they equally apply to Earth, so if 6.2 billion people stopped observing the Earth, everything on it would dissipate back in to Universe and would cease to exist. As it is of course everyone on Earth is so materially focussed this will not happen anytime soon, although it will eventually. I should mention that this only applies to man-made structures; the planet Earth itself was not created by man, and is therefore subject to the thoughts of its creator, but we won't get into that now.

The point is this though; endeavouring to explain the Universe in scientific terms is the mistake that scientists have always made, particularly since Newton, who still influences 99% of scientists with his 3 dimensional Universe theory. It is this mistake that keeps science looking in the direction of the physical Universe which is maybe 0.01% of the Universe as a whole, the physical being the "frozen" shell of the whole.  Mankind would make massively more progress by focussing on the inner Universe which is where we come from and returning, rather than wasting untold billions on going to the moon and similar folly, billions which could be used for the benefit of people on Earth who really need it.

So I would suggest that we accept the fact that Quanta exist and behave in this way, and proceed accordingly.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Dana]

Hello all,

I have to tell you all a little story. When just a wee lad my mother, wonderful woman, tried time and again to tell me what was “right”. Being an obstinate little cuss not once did I heed her wisdom, most times to my detriment, and would set out to discover for myself. Time and again she would extract me from the predicament that I found myself in. Of course this was how it had to be, without the experience of discovery I could never hope to gain the wisdom she attempted to impart to me. And it appears that nothing has changed since those simpler times. It is that journey of discovery that gives meaning to the knowledge gained. I dare say that perhaps that is all there is, no goal, or destination, or ultimate, but only the journey, the wonderful journey. I know not lads, but gladly embrace all who care to join me on that journey of discovery.

Now I will take my leave. It has been nice chatting.

But as I depart…….

Below are three quotes from David Bohm;

“As we have seen, however, it is the fate of all theories eventually to be falsified, so that they are relative truths, adequate only in certain domains.”

“To give primary significance to the undefinable and immeasurable holomovement implies that it has no meaning to talk of a fundamental theory, on which all of physics could find a permanent basis, or to which all the phenomena of physics could ultimately be reduced. Rather, each theory will abstract a certain aspect that is relevant only in some limited context (domains), which is indicated by some appropriate measure.”

“It is implied here, however, that even such a “new whole” will itself be revealed as an aspect in yet another new whole. Thus, Holonomy is not to be regarded as a fixed and final goal of scientific research, but rather as a movement in which “new wholes” are continually emerging. And of course this further implies that the total law of the undefinable and immeasurable holomovement could never be known or specified or put into words. Rather, such a law has necessarily to be regarded as implicit.”

To me they all say the same thing. Enjoy the journey.
I always dispute the absolutely undisputable facts.

And Finally; One for Rob;

Historians have concluded that Heisenberg must have been contemplating his love life when he discovered the Uncertainty Principle: - When he had the time, he didn’t have the energy; - when the moment was right, he couldn’t figure out the position.
 

Hope you all have a wonderful journey,
Dana

[Adrian]

Hello Dana,

Thank you for your truly excellent and informed contributions as well as your parting quotes.

I will add only that which I have already stated, vis, regardless of scientific fact or theory, the only truth is that which becomes apparent in the process of searching and finding.

We cannot use the truth to verify quantum theory, but rather use quantum theory as a tool for explaining the truth.

Thanks again, and I wish you a smooth journey on your path.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[seen Here]

......so if 6.2 billion people stopped observing the Earth, everything on it would dissipate back in to Universe and would cease to exist. Adrian.

Hi Adrian,

I think there is a danger of being egocentric here; of thinking that only one's own aspect of consciousness is important. There is even more a danger of being anthropocentric; of thinking that only that aspect of awareness that is human manifests reality. Remember that all creatures and everything that is manifest is in some sense conscious and participates in creation. Cats & dogs, plants, insects, even the earth itself are aware and take part in bringing into being that which we experience.

BTW - thanks for creating this new forum 

seen Here

[Adrian]

Hello,

......so if 6.2 billion people stopped observing the Earth, everything on it would dissipate back in to Universe and would cease to exist. Adrian.

Hi Adrian,

I think there is a danger of being egocentric here; of thinking that only one's own aspect of consciousness is important. There is even more a danger of being anthropocentric; of thinking that only that aspect of awareness that is human manifests reality. Remember that all creatures and everything that is manifest is in some sense conscious and participates in creation. Cats & dogs, plants, insects, even the earth itself are aware and take part in bringing into being that which we experience.

BTW - thanks for creating this new forum 

seen Here

Thank you for your kind words about the forum.

In fact the "world" I referred to was that "created" by humans; not the planet Earth or the words of other creatures or Beings.

The Earth is of the Universe whereas architecture, shops, homes etc of of humans, all creatures have their own equivalent upon the consensus of their mental plane. So to qualify the statement; all consensus and individual creations of humans would disappear.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[Werp Weg Alles]

Hi Dana,

That many worlds theory sounds a lot like string theory, could it be that? String theory says something about eleven dimensions or something. Then theres another thoery that says gravity is what stops things from occupying more then one location at a time.  Something like, after your born for like .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second your actually in mulitple locations?  I really can't remember most of it, I read about both in a issue of Discover dealing with Quantum Mechanics.

[citichic]

In the beginning, there was consciousness in the form of energy. Out of this consciousness, became thought. We are the result of thought and we are the collective consciousness that which you call God. God is everything that exists in it's entirety. So the thought of a big bang and the universes that exist are the energy that are brought forth from the energy into materialistic matter from waves of energy (string theory). The only problem I have with the current theory is that I feel that the energy becomes solid into colapsible matter. I feel that when I go to sleep, My daughter's material matter is held in place and the room is held there by my thought even when my present thoughts are elsewhere in my dreams. Not that it dissapears but my subconscious thoughts will hold my present chosen reality (or quantum field) in place. This last part is of my own theory. I could be wrong but I get the feeling that the quantum field can be more tangible than the present theory. The blockbuster DVD: "What the Bleep do We Know" is a really great explaination of the quantum universe.

[citichic]

In reply to my own post, I must add that this of course brings us to the question of where did the collective conscious come from? It could be that it is in existance infinitely where there is no time or place such as that of a sphere. The line of a circle or sphere has no beginning or end. A pendulum of motion that is in a higher understanding with out time or space. Just a thought.

[drwest3]

To my understanding things would disappear only when everyone in the universe does see it as a belief all at once. We are all connected on a subconscious level. So in order for it to disappear it has to on a collective conscious basis.

[Citichic]

So my own thoughts are just a small part of the collective consciousness and if we all thought of solutions for the earth's problems in depletion, war, possibility that a meteor will hit the earth at some time (actually it is inevitabe), then we will create a more sustainable future. I choose to think that this quantum reality will improve and continue to exist not that the planet will ultimately have a dooms day and start over somewhere else. We don't necessarily have to believe that the earth is doomed to an end. At least I know the possiblility exists that we will find solutions off planet in resources and in a place to live.
That is one example to expand the discussion as to how only a collective descision could change the course of the future.