Does time exist only in a physical dimension?

[Questioner]

Your comment was extremely "logical" as you say. Maybe logic doesn't work for this one.

Seth

But that's just it Seth. Logic MUST apply to all things--whether we can wrap our heads around the details of a logical sequence or not. Without logic we are left with chaos. And with chaos, "no thing" can be pinned down in any adequate way, especially the topic we are struggling to articulate here, with of course, the hope of achieving human understanding.

Within the limits of current language we are forced to rely on metaphor, symbol, allusion, allegory, and parable. And these things will always be subject to subjective interpretation.

For example, you wrote:
"In a bigger reality there is no end point or beginning point. There is only a circle."

As you admitted, here again you were forced to use inadequate language in the form of a "circle" to try and describe your subjective vision that "there is no end point or beginning point". And, I am sure you realize, even a "circle" requires progression from one point to another--which requires "time" to do so.

With such limitations of language the best way to describe that which you seek to describe is not with a circle. Rather, try thinking in terms of a minuscule dot-- . --  This "point" of timeless reality was commonly known by many ancient thinkers/mystics and is described in many languages. But even the dot [.] must be made manifest by cause and effect -- an indispensable element of creation. An element that also requires progression from one point to another--even if it is deemed "creatio ex nihilo" (creation from nothing).

I would love to think we could just throw the bath-water of logic out of the tub when it suits our subjective visions--without, of course, tossing the baby out with it--but unfortunately, that is just not possible.

So...<Sigh>....what can we do....   

As a final note: one thing we should try to avoid at all costs, and that is to allow ourselves to be sucked into the morass of irrationality. In this case, the absence of logic equals the presence of blind faith. And that just won't do!

[Adrian]

Hello Seth,

Thank you and indeed everyone for your observations on this subject.

I think a discussion on defining time is always bound to be fascinating.

We can say that time related to a state of consciousness.

When we meditate hours can seem like minutes. We can be driving a car and arrive at our destination seeminlgy very quickly without ever recalling the journey.  Pleasurable events go by quickly, unpleasurable events can seem to drag on forever.

We can therefore say, without doubt, that "time" is subjective and not objective, and therefore does not confom to any particular Universal Principle.

We can also say that it is related to consciousness in that if we focus deep enough in to our consciousness through deep meditation, we can make time disappear altogether - a state mystically known as samhadi.

So time must be an illusion.

The only way "time" can be objectively fixed is by attaching a set of rules to it, for example relative to the movement of Sun and Moon, and in so doing humans place a restriction upon themselves. 

This is evident when people endeavour to invoke the Law of Attraction for something, and then complain when it has not "appeared" after so many days.

The human adherence to mechanical time places them in a straight jacket.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[Kailaurius]

So...<Sigh>....what can we do....   

Gratefully we don't have to do anything. 

Sometimes I will catch myself getting caught up in the details about how some things work, and then my thinking ends up going around in loops, and then my head begins to swim.  At that point I will remind myself that the details are completely irrelevant.  All that matters to me is experience and my journey back to Source.  Chapter 91 is an excellent chapter in the book "OUR" called "Let Go and Let God".  When things become too complicated or frustrating to understand you just let go and let God.  Just go with the flow of life and let your creations manifest into your reality.

Like food I desire to be weaned off time as well.  I seek to release myself from everything I perceive as binding which includes the dependency on time, food, etc.

[Adrian]

Hello Kailaurius,

Gratefully we don't have to do anything. 

Sometimes I will catch myself getting caught up in the details about how some things work, and then my thinking ends up going around in loops, and then my head begins to swim.  At that point I will remind myself that the details are completely irrelevant.  All that matters to me is experience and my journey back to Source.  Chapter 91 is an excellent chapter in the book "OUR" called "Let Go and Let God".  When things become too complicated or frustrating to understand you just let go and let God.  Just go with the flow of life and let your creations manifest into your reality.

Like food I desire to be weaned off time as well.  I seek to release myself from everything I perceive as binding which includes the dependency on time, food, etc.

Yes you are absolutely correct.

If only people would stop thinking and worrying and place themselves within God.

As Jesus stated:

"Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?"

In other words, has anyone ever improved their position by dwelling on it.

I am aware of numerous situations of people who have ended up in a situation that seems so utterly hopeless that they completely capitulate their thought processes, worries and fears, and place their "fate" in the "hands of God", only to experience a "miraculous" change in their "fortunes".

The fact is it should never take a desparate situation to experience this. If people stopped thinking and immersed themselves in God, they will always experience health, abundance and joy.  Alas - in this material driven world people just cannot seem to let go.

My advice to anyone who is experiencing a situation where they feel they have reached the depths of despair is just Let go and Let God.

Kind regards,

Adrian.
 

[Questioner]

If people stopped thinking and immersed themselves in God, they will always experience health, abundance and joy.

Oh dear....

Sounds like religious rhetoric to me.

I guess that answers the question I asked earlier: "So...<Sigh>....what can we do....?"

I guess, Adrian, as the authority on OUR, you would have us turn to the gods to fill in the blanks, rather than invest the extra work necessary to figure things out for ourselves. I am forced to acknowledge, however, that doing so is infinitely easier, which is why this has been the most popular thing to do for many centuries now. It is such short-cuts that has made religion the fix-all answer for billions of people around the globe. Easy does it.

Personally, I prefer rational metaphysical investigation--even though it is a much greater intellectual challenge.

...Oh well. I will leave you to it then! peut-être un autre jour

[Adrian]

Hello Questioner,

If people stopped thinking and immersed themselves in God, they will always experience health, abundance and joy.

Oh dear....

Sounds like religious rhetoric to me.

I guess that answers the question I asked earlier: "So...<Sigh>....what can we do....?"

I guess, Adrian, as the authority on OUR, you would have us turn to the gods to fill in the blanks, rather than invest the extra work necessary to figure things out for ourselves. I am forced to acknowledge, however, that doing so is infinitely easier, which is why this has been the most popular thing to do for many centuries now. It is such short-cuts that has made religion the fix-all answer for billions of people around the globe. Easy does it.

Personally, I prefer rational metaphysical investigation--even though it is a much greater intellectual challenge.

...Oh well. I will leave you to it then! peut-être un autre jour

I can understand how you might interpret my answer in that way, but if you were familiar with my writings you would know that no one is less religious than I

When I quote the Bible I an revealing inner, Metaphysical and Spiritual meanings as opposed to the theology of religion.

When I use the word "God" I do so as a familiar reference point for the Supreme Being that I prefer to refer to as Source, The First Cause, Divine Providence and by other names.

Of course God has millions of names, because every human Being and life form on Earth and indeed the Universe represents a name of God.

That said - perhaps I perhaps could have explained it better.

First of all - absolutely zero "work" is necessary for anything in life. "Work" is the human way and has been forever.

We are all aspects and expressions of Source Energy, Divine Providence, First Cause, God, and accordingly we enjoy all of the powers of God without limitation, but only to the extent we can realise those powers by realising God.

We also have access to all knowledge in the Universe in all Spheres of Life without limitation. All limitations are self-inflicted by humans.

Humans block their Divine powers by believing that the solution to everything is physical - physical work etc - thereby blocking, or at least reducing to a trickle their Divine connection by substituting Divine powers with temporal, physical, Ego oriented thoughts and actions.

As we are God, God knows each and every one of us intimately, and accordingly knows our situation. We are not here to suffer - quite the contrary - therefore if we completely capitulate all thoughts, fears and worries, and open our channel to God that much wider, God, Divine Providence will provide a solution if we ask for it and allow God to express that solution through us without restriction.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[juliainkc]

Hello Adrian,

I appreciate you. I truly enjoyed reading your response here and deeply resonate and support you in what you are sharing here.

In Love and Light within Divine Spirit,

Julia

[Adrian]

Dear Julia,

Hello Adrian,

I appreciate you. I truly enjoyed reading your response here and deeply resonate and support you in what you are sharing here.

In Love and Light within Divine Spirit,

Julia

Thank you very much for your most kind words and support

But yourself every member of this forum contributes to the collective resonation of the higher matters that we discuss here. If that were not the case, I would not be able to share with others, and I am most grateful for the opportunity to do so.

In Love and Light,

Adrian.

[Sethg]

Your comment was extremely "logical" as you say. Maybe logic doesn't work for this one.

Seth

But that's just it Seth. Logic MUST apply to all things--whether we can wrap our heads around the details of a logical sequence or not. Without logic we are left with chaos. And with chaos, "no thing" can be pinned down in any adequate way, especially the topic we are struggling to articulate here, with of course, the hope of achieving human understanding.

Within the limits of current language we are forced to rely on metaphor, symbol, allusion, allegory, and parable. And these things will always be subject to subjective interpretation.

For example, you wrote:
"In a bigger reality there is no end point or beginning point. There is only a circle."

As you admitted, here again you were forced to use inadequate language in the form of a "circle" to try and describe your subjective vision that "there is no end point or beginning point". And, I am sure you realize, even a "circle" requires progression from one point to another--which requires "time" to do so.

With such limitations of language the best way to describe that which you seek to describe is not with a circle. Rather, try thinking in terms of a minuscule dot-- . --  This "point" of timeless reality was commonly known by many ancient thinkers/mystics and is described in many languages. But even the dot [.] must be made manifest by cause and effect -- an indispensable element of creation. An element that also requires progression from one point to another--even if it is deemed "creatio ex nihilo" (creation from nothing).

I would love to think we could just throw the bath-water of logic out of the tub when it suits our subjective visions--without, of course, tossing the baby out with it--but unfortunately, that is just not possible.

So...<Sigh>....what can we do....   

As a final note: one thing we should try to avoid at all costs, and that is to allow ourselves to be sucked into the morass of irrationality. In this case, the absence of logic equals the presence of blind faith. And that just won't do!

This is fun questioner!

The words that you use like "logic" "rational" "irrational" for me are words of the thinking mind. The mind is a trickster and loves to have control wanting us to put concepts in a box so it can "understand"

Possibly what you call logic I call order. More words again. We live in an ordered universe where their are laws or principles that determine life.

Many ancient scripts have described that order came of chaos when god spirit love whatever you want to call it was present.

From Kabbalah the book of creation called the Sepher Yetzirah describes the 10 sefirot coming out of the void to create order out of nothingness. Order comes after chaos. In nature chaos happens all the time as a natural preface to new life. So when you say the "morass of irrationality" I am not sure what you mean.

Some say that the consciousness we are in is chaos. It is dis-harmonic. This consciousness we have been in has been filled with chaos and brutal actions of humans to humans.  Evolving to the next level which is what this is all about will return us to harmony and if not humans will destroy their species.

Getting off topic again.

I guess what I am saying is that your statement of "logic must apply to all things" is where we may have to leave this discussion as for me logic cannot apply to all things or anything.

Have you read Drunvalo's "Flower of Life" books? A great read for me a few years ago and really helped me leave my former logical left brained existence behind. Great explanation of the genesis pattern and how the universe came into a consciousness of form.

Thanks
Seth

[Questioner]

Hey Seth,

Have you read Drunvalo's "Flower of Life" books? A great read for me a few years ago and really helped me leave my former logical left brained existence behind. Great explanation of the genesis pattern and how the universe came into a consciousness of form.

No, but I did read "Nothing in this book is true, but it's exactly how things are", which at least touches in on Drunvaloian Thought. And to me, it is the perfect beauty of the flower of life that supports the need for logic in the way we perceive such beauty.

When I use the word "irrational"/"illogical" I am referring to those things that truly make no sense, and the flower of life makes perfect sense to me. In fact, such truths in nature compel me to seek more knowledge and understanding of the world than ever before. Plato would say, look to the soul and the heavens, and Aristotle would say, look to the flower. I say, they are all of the same essence. As we are as well.

I guess we have different understandings of what logic really is, and how it can be applied to universal knowledge and understanding. I was reminded recently about the tale that the ancient Aztecs were not at first able "to see" the Spanish ships in the bay, for such a sight was outside of their experience. It was, quite simply, illogical in their eyes. They had "no words" to describe what they were seeing. But...the Spaniards were quite real, and their existence was very logical in the bigger scheme of things (even if their ulterior motives were perhaps cruel and inhumane...) But, sure enough, the Aztecs were eventually able "to see" the Spaniards in all their human-ness. And a relative few even lived to tell the tale.

So again, I must reiterate, that the language we use to discuss the things we are attempting to discuss are the biggest limitations we face in taking subjective visionary experiences to the higher level of serious objective inquiry. We have "seen" the subjective vision of our discussion. Now we just need the words to describe what we are seeing--objectively.

And no, I do not think we should follow Wittgenstein's youthful advice "to say nothing except what can be said." Rather, I think we should continue to dialogue, but first--we need new words that will encapsulate the new ideas that such progressive metaphysics requires.

In the case at hand, I personally (and logically ) do not think that the issue at hand is that "time does not exist". Rather, there is something else about our ultimate reality that is not subject to time.

So, in order to address this issue, let's create a new word. For example: Instead of using the word "time" (in that it does not exist), we need a new word/definition that would better encapsulate what we are trying to describe, such as "relative perception of cause and effect"; Repocae. Or something of that nature.

Since usage of the word "time" is totally dependent upon linear movement, and definitely implies such movement, the use of a new word, such as repocae (just a spur of the moment example), has yet to become entrenched by such preconceived notions.

So, let us say, "all repocae is now". What does this communicate? Quite simply that, "all relative perception of cause and effect" is occurring "outside of human standardized time"--or better yet, "is not subject to human standardized time".

This is just a suggestion (and may well be problematic as well), but I think such new words are a good (and necessary) place to being metaphysical inquiry anew.

And, as always, this is just my opine. For whatever it's worth...

[Questioner]

Adrian,

... absolutely zero "work" is necessary for anything in life. "Work" is the human way and has been forever...

As we are God... We are not here to suffer - quite the contrary - therefore if we completely capitulate all thoughts, fears and worries, and open our channel to God that much wider, God, Divine Providence will provide a solution if we ask for it and allow God to express that solution through us without restriction.

Why do you equate "work" with "suffering?"

And why, if "we are God" do we have "to ask" for the ability to be "godlike"? Shouldn't we learn to just embrace who and what we are? Why do we need to continue to depend upon traditional religious rhetoric, which is chock-full of human slave-making brainwashing tactics?

It is this mixture of old-age religious language combined with new age metaphysical speculation that I think just further confuses things. All this does is recreate the "opiate of the masses" as merely more invisible clothes for the emperor of the universe to wear.

As you should be able to tell from my postings, I am clearly an advocate for broadening our vocabularies for metaphysical inquiry, rather than being forced to navigate "the morass of irrational" by-gone thought.

Once again, this is just my opine! And "time" is not necessarily of the essence!

[Sethg]

Questioner

Repocae

You may be the author of a new dictionary for metaphysical concepts. I have fun with this same subject.
On my blog I have repeatedly said those same things about the use of words not being sufficient to articulate these concepts.

As I mentioned earlier today eliminating the spoken word may be easier. Words are fun to play with though.

"It is this mixture of old-age religious language combined with new age metaphysical speculation that I think just further confuses things. All this does is recreate the "opiate of the masses" as merely more invisible clothes for the emperor of the universe to wear.

As you should be able to tell from my postings, I am clearly an advocate for broadening our vocabularies for metaphysical inquiry, rather than being forced to navigate "the morass of irrational" by-gone thought"

My last post was called "Taking the Woo-Woo out of New Age Talk" I was trying to help bridge the gap between people who tune out when they hear certain metaphysical terms and simplify them. I might have just added to the "opiate of the masses"

I'm tuned into your opine now

[Questioner]

Hey Seth,

This will have to be my last post of the evening <yawn...>. You wrote:

As I mentioned earlier today eliminating the spoken word may be easier. Words are fun to play with though.

It is my opinion that as long as we are in human bodies, with all the human faculties that come with this manifestation, I think we should do everything we can to maximize our potential. Just like "time" is something that we must all deal with here on earth, language is yet another indispensable attribute.

In my astral travels I have encountered realities where entities have no vocal cords, and are forced to rely upon other means of communication--which is not a bad thing in and of itself. But, this fact lead to my thinking that while some of us are terribly "homesick" and wish we could return from whence we came (myself included), the sad fact remains that we are still here, and until we are elsewhere, we should make the most out of the current form we have taken.

It is all well and good to teach people to "sit down" and "do nothing" but "open ourselves to the source of all that is" and "let the source take care of everything", but that is not "being fully human." That is negating everything that this experience is offering us.

I personally think that there will come a time when we will once again be in such a sublime open state, but until then, we are all human beings seeking to remember who we are and from where we originate. In order to do this within the realm of human beingness, we should be true to ourselves and maximize the potential of being all that humanity can be--instead of trying to be something we are not (at the moment).

There is actually a very good chance that we are all here on earth--on purpose--in order to experience the very things that some of you are trying to negate. "Language" being one such experience. Limits and all. And "time" being another. Even as some of us work toward developing communal telepathy (which I think is definitely a worthy endeavor), we must realize that even telepathic communication requires language. Even the entities I have encountered who had no vocal cords still had to use a form of language to communicate. And moreover, I have encountered zero evidence of "no time" in any of my excursions into other realities.

So, instead of throwing in the towel, I think we should endeavor in every way possible to ensure that human evolution steadily progresses into the future. Ergo, my proposal that we expand our language bases to include the vocabulary necessary for progressive human evolution. And--while we are at it--we should work continuously on improving the current (and seemingly limited) model of being "human".

As always tho', this is just my opine! 


 

[Adrian]

Hello Questioner,

Why do you equate "work" with "suffering?"

Quite simply because most suffering arises from the belief that humans must physically work through material means in order to achieve anything.

If humans knew that we are unlimited, infinite creators as aspects and expressions of Source, God, there would be no suffering.

And why, if "we are God" do we have "to ask" for the ability to be "godlike"? Shouldn't we learn to just embrace who and what we are? Why do we need to continue to depend upon traditional religious rhetoric, which is chock-full of human slave-making brainwashing tactics?

We all have the latent ability to be God-like because we already are God. The issues arise because the Ego of many refuses to accept that - as well as believing that we are helpless organic creatures that must obtain everything through physical work - thereby blocking to a large extent our inner powers of creation.

It is this mixture of old-age religious language combined with new age metaphysical speculation that I think just further confuses things. All this does is recreate the "opiate of the masses" as merely more invisible clothes for the emperor of the universe to wear.

I personally use language like this as well as quoting from the Bible because billions of people relate to it. It is better to approach people from a position of familiarity rather than to introduce totally alien concepts.  In any case the Bible is an extremely powerful work, it is just that the vast majority of people, including the entire church does not understand it.

As you should be able to tell from my postings, I am clearly an advocate for broadening our vocabularies for metaphysical inquiry, rather than being forced to navigate "the morass of irrational" by-gone thought.

It would be nice to broaden our vocabularies in this respect, but aside from that "time" is short, I believe that introducing more vocabulary will only add to the confusion and scepticism that abounds today.

We need to work with what we have.

Our entire nature can be summed up in three words: "We are God".

There are simply those that know that and those who do not.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[Talker]

Hello Questioner,

Why do you equate "work" with "suffering?"

Quite simply because most suffering arises from the belief that humans must physically work through material means in order to achieve anything.

If humans knew that we are unlimited, infinite creators as aspects and expressions of Source, God, there would be no suffering.

And why, if "we are God" do we have "to ask" for the ability to be "godlike"? Shouldn't we learn to just embrace who and what we are? Why do we need to continue to depend upon traditional religious rhetoric, which is chock-full of human slave-making brainwashing tactics?

We all have the latent ability to be God-like because we already are God. The issues arise because the Ego of many refuses to accept that - as well as believing that we are helpless organic creatures that must obtain everything through physical work - thereby blocking to a large extent our inner powers of creation.

It is this mixture of old-age religious language combined with new age metaphysical speculation that I think just further confuses things. All this does is recreate the "opiate of the masses" as merely more invisible clothes for the emperor of the universe to wear.

I personally use language like this as well as quoting from the Bible because billions of people relate to it. It is better to approach people from a position of familiarity rather than to introduce totally alien concepts.  In any case the Bible is an extremely powerful work, it is just that the vast majority of people, including the entire church does not understand it.

As you should be able to tell from my postings, I am clearly an advocate for broadening our vocabularies for metaphysical inquiry, rather than being forced to navigate "the morass of irrational" by-gone thought.

It would be nice to broaden our vocabularies in this respect, but aside from that "time" is short, I believe that introducing more vocabulary will only add to the confusion and scepticism that abounds today.

We need to work with what we have.

Our entire nature can be summed up in three words: "We are God".

There are simply those that know that and those who do not.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

Hello Adrian and All,

While I under stand how used here:

Our entire nature can be summed up in three words: "We are God".

The bottom line so to speak is:

          'God Is'

With pure intentions.
Be Well