Christ an “Initiate”?

[melody]

Was Christ a mere human and all the miracles he did were because he was initiated to some ancient mysteries by some mystic group?  Those mystic groups were actually secret societies in the ancient past.

Bible claims that Jesus was a son of God, i.e. a “materialization” of God on this planet. Basically Jesus was God himself. Being God, he did not need to be initiated. He had the same creative powers as God.

He was far above any human being with all the miracles he performed. No other initiate ever was able to perform the things Jesus did. One miracle in particular sets him definitely apart from a mere human – the raising of Lazarus from dead 3 days after death took place. No human initiate had ever before or since was able to perform anything of a kind.

There is only one being who can give life and it is God. People give birth, but they don’t give life. They cannot create life out of dust as God did. They cannot raise dead after 3 days of being dead, whichever high initiates they might be.

Therefore, in my opinion, Christ was not a mere human being or an initiate.

Another thing, when Lazarus was raised from dead, he did not say, ”Oh, I was in the most wondrous Astral worlds, where I could have anything just by thinking about it. It was so marvelous, much better than being here. Why did you bring me back?" He did not go through embryonic stage, the birth process, or parental “indoctrination” where people supposedly forget about Astral worlds. Lazarus simply went on with his regular everyday living.

I am sure should Lazarus have said anything of the kind the disciples would have reported this.

[Talker]

Bible claims that Jesus was a son of God, i.e. a materialization of God on this planet. Basically Jesus was God himself. Being God, he did not need to be initiated. He had the same creative powers as God.

Therefore, in my opinion, Christ was not a mere human being or an initiate.

Hello Melody,
Interesting points of view. Thank you. Have long sought answers to my various thoughts on this subject, and did post those thoughts, on my blogs. My own thoughts and beliefs however, vary considerably from what you posted. i respect your view points and opinion. During my stressful and forbidden forays into the bible, certain aspects made no sense. Will for this post stay close to your quoted statements. I believe that we are all materialization's of the Divine Spark. We need only, and that is a big only, to reawaken that knowing of it. My thoughts were that if Jesus, was as the bible states, born, as God, than there is no hope for mankind. But if Jesus was born as an ordinary human in that sense of the word, there is still hope for mankind. If one "mere" human could achieve that magnificent elevated state, why not another "mere" human, also doing so. Do realize that this is not the accepted reasoning of many, but to me it does make sense. If God, born into this physical world, as Jesus, and leading to the conditions that prevail, what hope is there! If, as with my way of thinking, Jesus achieved and performed, as the bible states, then there is hope for mankinds progress. Some of my reasoning is based on a statement supposedly made by Jesus. In John 14:12-14, "will also do the works that I do, and greater works will he do". My reading of that statement, caused me to take a deep and hard look at the implications involved with it. Did that mean we would do greater things than God! Maybe! I don't think so, though. Did it, perhaps, mean that we all could achieve what Jesus did under the prevailing circumstances! Seems more logical, that we can advance to what Jesus achieved, if we choose to do so.It seems that at this point, is where mankind, has fumbled so to speak.The lessons Jesus laid out for us, falls on many deaf ears.
Now, I'm not a biblical scholar, nor do I pretend to be one, and when I read what the experts say diversly, about the bible, wouldn't want to be one. I'll just stick with what I call "applied common sense", and the "feeling tones" of that.

[melody]

Hello Talker,

A lot of people are prone to take the barest quotes possible from the Bible, whereas Bible is a continuous narrative. What precedes or follows is of a great importance to elucidate the meaning. Here is John that you mentioned, but starting from 14:10 and ending at 14:15. The quote is from King James Bible. It becomes clear right away that Jesus says he is the same as Father – the God, and it is God that does the work through his physical body. And if one believes in Jesus and keeps his commandments, one can do great works as well. It states it very clearly that one has to ask in Jesus’ name to receive positive answers.

Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13  And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14  If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

My thoughts were that if Jesus, was as the bible states, born, as God, than there is no hope for mankind. But if Jesus was born as an ordinary human in that sense of the word, there is still hope for mankind. ...  If God, born into this physical world, as Jesus, and leading to the conditions that prevail, what hope is there!

I don’t really understand your above statement that there is no hope for mankind if Jesus is God. Sorry, but I don't understand it. The quotation from John makes it very clear that precisely because Jesus is God this is where a man can draw his hope and power from. The conditions that prevail are because men are respecting their own human power much more than the power that could be sought through God.

If one "mere" human could achieve that magnificent elevated state, why not another "mere" human, also doing so.

It is through Jesus, through God, that one achieves "that magnificent elevated state”, as John verses above state.  Im my opinion, such a state could not be achieved through just another "mere" human being, or purely through oneself.

Bible is the only text there is that survived through millennia and has been constantly perused by people. In my opinion one should not choose and pick from the Bible some disconnected segments and paste them according to one’s quite limited human understanding of things, that understanding being largely colored by Ego. There is a story told in the Bible that is of great relevance for us and for our survival.

I found Dr. Veith lectures explaining the meaning of Biblical passages and prophesies very useful. They finally clarified a lot of Bible stuff from for me.

We are an integral part of God. He created us, we did not create ourselves, and it is through him for us to find the "magnificent elevated state" that he is.

[Talker]

Hello Talker,

A lot of people are prone to take the barest quotes possible from the Bible, whereas Bible is a continuous narrative.

Thank you Melody, an excellent critique. I am guilty of what you say in the above quote. Was endeavoring to keep it all down to the minimun of words. Might I also add that I believe , that the bible is still being written, and as you state, is "a continuous narrative", (and my words) a work still in progress. Will for now, refrain from any clarification of my prior post. Will at this point mention,that when I first came across Adrians "Our Ultimate Reality", I was some what relieved, that anyone else had even dared to question supposedly solid beliefs. I referr now to pages 141, 171, 632, and part of 669/670, of the mentioned book, as regards Jesus' status, and my understanding of Jesus' role.
Will at this point,leave our comments jell, and perhaps to receive further comments, before elucidating further.

[melody]

Hello Taker,

When I said “continuous narrative” I did not mean a work in progress. I simply meant that all peaces of the Bible fit together to make a unified whole. The Bible was written centuries ago and still applies. It does not need any additions or subtractions. Simply, people had misunderstood its teachings for millennia, or had bended them to their limited understanding in order to serve their personal or ego purposes. Do you know that there was a period when the Catholic church and the Pope had actually banned the Bible? That the Bible was actually considered by the Pope and the church to be a heretic book? Watch Dr. Veith’s videos, you will discover all sorts of interesting stuff about the Bible and its teachings.

Here is one of the items that COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D. decreed

"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

[Talker]

Hello Talker,

I don’t really understand your above statement that there is no hope
for mankind if Jesus is God. Sorry, but I don't understand it. The
quotation from John makes it very clear that precisely because Jesus
is God this is where a man can draw his hope and power from. The
conditions that prevail are because men are respecting their own
human power much more than the power that could be sought through
God.

If one "mere" human could achieve that magnificent elevated state,
why not another "mere" human, also doing so.

It is through Jesus, through God, that one achieves "that magnificent
elevated state, as John verses above state.  Im my opinion, such a
state could not be achieved through just another "mere" human being,
or purely through oneself.
Bible is the only text there is that survived through millennia and has
been constantly perused by people. In my opinion one should not
choose and pick from the Bible some disconnected segments and
paste them according to one’s quite limited human understanding of
things, that understanding being largely colored by Ego. There is a
story told in the Bible that is of great relevance for us and for our
survival.
[/quote]

Hello Melody,
Going through the posts here, I find that I had left a confusing issue open, or perhaps should say, less than understandable issue open. To my awareness the words "Jesus Christ" is an incorrect description. Jesus was the first ever to achieve the Christ state. So the term as I see it should be "Jesus The Christ". Along with the other descriptions given in my dictionary for "Christ" is "an ideal type of humanity". So my reading of "Jesus the Ideal type of Humanity", conveys impact for me. Here as I interpret it, is an ordinary (mere) human being achieving Christ consciousness. So what is Christ consciousness!  I believe I've read that Christ consciousness, is the "Mind of God individualized." Jesus showed us how to achieve that state. Thats what I meant when I asked "if one human being can achieve that "magnificent elevated state", why not another "mere" human, also doing so." That is the hope for mankind that I referred to. Whatever ones current weaknesses are, that there is still hope, regardless of how we, and world things appear to be. They are all man made correctable conditions. From what I have read , that no one can be perfect, as was Jesus, that he was the perfect Son of God, what hope is there for any of us then! As for the bible, I've read that it is a record of human experiences in the quest for God and for Truth. Also stated was, the greatest limitation to understanding the Bible is the insistence on its infallibility. So once past that hurdle, I've found the Bible a wonderful source of information. hope I haven't further created more confusion.

[Adrian]

Hello,

I will not answer all the excellent discussions raised above in this post, but will certainly keep an eye out for future contributions.

Regarding "Jesus Christ" - this definitely has been drastically misunderstood for the most part, and certainly by the Church.

As Talker rightly says, the phrase should be "Jesus the Christ".  Most of these differences have occured as a direct result of mistranslation of the original text in Ancient Greek - either accidently, or more often that not deliberately in order to exert a slant on the Bible that is more in common with the theology and doctrines of the church.

The word "Christ" originated from the Ancient Greek word "Christos" which means "annointed one". In Ancient Greek culture, most leaders, holy people, kings etc. were "annointed" as a part of the tradition, either physically, or metaphorically, so in fact Jesus the Annointed One is in the same group as many other people living around that time.

As to this issue as to whether Jesus was/is the Son of God - again yes he was/is, but no more or less than anyone else.

The person called "Jesus", real name "Jeshua" was a very high Initiate, who, after the first few years of his birth, was taken in, as planned, by the Essenes, and given all of the background training he would need for when he started his open teachings.

The Bible is a book of Initiation and Metaphysics, of that there is not the slightest question as far as I am concerned, but, as Jeshua himself said, only those who were able to understand it actually would - everyone else would be deaf to his teachings.

Kind regards,

Adrian.
 

[melody]

The person called "Jesus", real name "Jeshua" was a very high Initiate, who, after the first few years of his birth, was taken in, as planned, by the Essenes, and given all of the background training he would need for when he started his open teachings.

Hello Adrian,

Could you please tell us what is the source of your information about Christ being an initiate taken away by the Essenes a few years after his birth. To my knowledge, there is no such historical documentation attesting to this.

[Talker]

The person called "Jesus", real name "Jeshua" was a very high Initiate, who, after the first few years of his birth, was taken in, as planned, by the Essenes, and given all of the background training he would need for when he started his open teachings.

Hello Adrian,

Could you please tell us what is the source of your information about Christ being an initiate taken away by the Essenes a few years after his birth. To my knowledge, there is no such historical documentation attesting to this.

Hi Melody,
I'm very interested with what your query draws response wise. Can only find reference of Jesus at 12 years of age, preaching at the temple, where Mary and Joseph found him, after thinking he (Jesus) got lost. Then there is an eighteen year gap, with no bible comments of Jesus' where abouts, until the age of thirty. Interesting.

[Adrian]

Hello Melody,

Hello Adrian,

Could you please tell us what is the source of your information about Christ being an initiate taken away by the Essenes a few years after his birth. To my knowledge, there is no such historical documentation attesting to this.

There is significant historical evidence from historical sources that do not form part of the canon of the Bible, and from ancient documents that are more recently being discovered, such as the Nag Hammadi library as well as the result of research from historians and others.

Just to clarify your question - Jesus was not "taken away" by the Essenes, as in abducted, he joined them in order to receive the training he required in order to continue his teaching later in life. It is usual in the Essenes for members to devote a substantial part of their lives to the group, before leaving in this way. There is increasing evidence to suggest that his mother Mary was a high ranking Essene as well at the time she gave birth to Jesus. So it quickly becomes abundantly clear, to me at least, that his birth mother, Mary, as a high ranking Essene, was chosen as the vehicle, not only for his birth, but also for his preparation for what was to come later in his life by introduction to the Essene order. These were not "random" events.

Keep in Mind that Jesus did not arrive on Earth with any special knowledge and powers as such, he is just a normal human Being the same as everyone else, with the same needs as everyone else including early preparation for the outside world and Earthlymission. It is clear that joining the Essenes was always something was to do, being one of the few groups that could prepare him for what was to come. I do not think for a minute that getting "crucified" was in his plans. He was here to "save the world alright", but not the world of 2000 years ago, it was rather the world of today as we transition though the end of this great age and the next, the outcome of which will be determined by human consciousness - it was this that Jesus came here to change in good time, knowing that the entire process would take a couple of thousand years to reach all humanity.

As for Initiate - this is a person who has successfully completed "life tests" during the process of evolution, that effectively take that person to a new level of vibration and understanding of the Universe. "Ascended Masters" are "ascended" because they are high Initiates compared to people still incarnating on Earth and have transcended the cycle of incarnation. Some "Ascended Masters"  however voluntarily return to Earth at various crucial junctures in the evolution of humanity, in order to assist in the process of guiding the consciousness of humanity in the right direction. So Jesus was a very high Initiate relatively speaking, one of the highest to reincarnate, as well as for example Hermes Trismegistus, Buddha and others, who came to Earth to prepare the way for the transition of the ages that we are now experiencing, although of course he did not anticipate his words being turned into a religion that would have exactly the opposite effect on consciousness that he intended, and which plummeted humanity into even greater depths.

This was not the fault of Jeshua however - he completed his mission perfectly, it was rather the Roman Empire that ceased his words and turned them into an instrument of control, notwithstanding they had not the faintest clue about the true meaning of his teachings.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[Adrian]

Hello Talker,

I'm very interested with what your query draws response wise. Can only find reference of Jesus at 12 years of age, preaching at the temple, where Mary and Joseph found him, after thinking he (Jesus) got lost. Then there is an eighteen year gap, with no bible comments of Jesus' where abouts, until the age of thirty. Interesting.

Well this alone should be significant. Does anyone think that a very small boy simply wanders off, gets lost, and then later turns up as a Spiritual teacher?

Of course not. My view is that Mary handed him over to the Essenes herself to begin his training, like people who enter Buddhism for example as very young boys, and later, as part of that training, he went out and did some teaching. He then returned to the Essenes to complete his training before starting his final work during the years that are mostly written about. Also keep in mind that it seems extremely likely that teachings of the Essenes and other similar groups such as the Pharisees and Sadducees came from the Buddhist culture, which is probably the absolute root of all these teachings.

The Essenes were a very secretive and closed group, where isolation is necessary in order to focus inititiates on their training, without "contamination" from the outside world, again like Buddhism and their monasteries.  This is how the more secretive orders of Tibetan Buddhist monks gain their Metaphysical abilities just as Jesus did, that later people called "miracles".

Most people today generally seem to only see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe from the literal word of the Bible and how the Church, without looking at the deeper meanings and significance.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[melody]

There is significant historical evidence from historical sources that do not form part of the canon of the Bible, and from ancient documents that are more recently being discovered, such as the Nag Hammadi library as well as the result of research from historians and others.

Hello Adrian,

Could you please tell where did your information on this subject come from? Directly from those historical sources, or you read about this in somebody's book? Which book?

[Adrian]

Hello Melody,

Could you please tell where did your information on this subject come from? Directly from those historical sources, or you read about this in somebody's book? Which book?

These are subjects I have been studying for many years, and often I simply keep it in mind for future reference. The early life of Jesus has never been a particular focus or priority of mine.

I just did a quick Google search which turned up this book on Amazon which might be of interest:

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Essenes-Dolores-Cannon/dp/1886940088

Called "Jesus an the Essenes". I have not read it and so cannot comment as to its content or accuracy.

Here is a website: http://www.essene.com/ which quotes:

"Essene - An ancient term of the sect of Judaism which birthed, raised and then followed the Master - Yeshua (Essene Jesus). Noted for their vegetarianism, communal living and healing art practices."

Which is actually a very accurate description.

I personally have little doubt that Mary was an Essene initiate, who took Jesus to the Essene community for his early training and initiations in readiness for his public teachings as an Essene and of course incarnation of a high Initiate Master.

The whole "virgin birth" aspect of the Christianity as well as the death and "resurrection" was a myth contrived by the Romans, and based upon many similar myths of the previous 2000 years, starting with Horus and ending with the Roman deity Mithras, and during which time there were 16 "God-men" who lived and died under almost identical circumstances.

The Romans used the same Myth because the populous, who Constantine wanted to convert to the "new religion" were already familair with the same sequence of events relating to Mithras, their exisiting Deity.

You can read more about this on my site:

http://www.ourultimatereality.com/the-bible-the-myths-the-power-and-the-glory.html

But here is a quote relating to the myth of the Egyptian God Horus which started the trend:

Was born on December 25 to a "virgin mother" * The birth was accompanied by a "Star in the East"
The birth was accompanied by "three kings"
Horus Was baptized at 30
Horus Had 12 disciples
Horus went about and performed many miracles Horus was known as "The Lamb" and "The Light"
Horus was crucified
Was buried for 3 days
Until finally Horus was resurrected

Incidentally, the "bright star" was the star Sirius, and the three stars in the belt of Orion that interect Sirius and point towards the Earth were and still are called "The Three Kings" or "The Three Wise Men", which therefore "followed" the star Sirius to the birth place of Jesus.

Also quoted from my article:

The constellation of Virgo is also known in ancient mythology as "The House of Bread". In ancient Hebrew, "House of Bread"
translates to "Beit Lehem" or "Bethlehem" - the place where the "Son" was born to Virgo Mary.

I hope you are beginning to see the significance of these facts as relates to the greater life of Jeshua.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[Talker]

I just did a quick Google search which turned up this book on Amazon which might be of interest:

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Essenes-Dolores-Cannon/dp/1886940088

Called "Jesus an the Essenes". I have not read it and so cannot comment as to its content or accuracy.

Here is a website: http://www.essene.com/ which quotes:

"Essene - An ancient term of the sect of Judaism which birthed, raised and then followed the Master - Yeshua (Essene Jesus). Noted for their vegetarianism, communal living and healing art practices."

You can read more about this on my site:

http://www.ourultimatereality.com/the-bible-the-myths-the-power-and-the-glory.html

Also quoted from my article:

The constellation of Virgo is also known in ancient mythology as "The House of Bread". In ancient Hebrew, "House of Bread"
translates to "Beit Lehem" or "Bethlehem" - the place where the "Son" was born to Virgo Mary.

I hope you are beginning to see the significance of these facts as relates to the greater life of Jeshua.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

Thank you Adrian for the information and the links posted. Guess that I have some what slacked off in doing my home work, like on the subject here. Do appreciate your forum here, and the opportunity to converse with like minded souls, and with your attention to questions posed.
Almost shudder to think how it might be when I get old  (LOL) if I'm already slowing down.

[Adrian]

Hello Talker,

Almost shudder to think how it might be when I get old  (LOL) if I'm already slowing down.

You will only get old if you think you will

Our bodies are totally rebuilt every few years - that is a medical fact - but the body is rebuilt in accordance with the image we hold of our body in our Mind.

If you follow the advice of society and the stereotypical "signs of aging", then your Subconscious Mind will be only too happy to oblige.

Decide what age you want to be and let your Subconscious Mind know.

Kind regards,

Adrian.